It's been awhile since I've felt embarrassed for the Giants, but today ranks right up there with historically bad ones and I go back to before the 70's and early 80's. On top of the disheartening news about Mota, this was an ugly, ugly game. It started out as a BABIP battle between Barry Zito and Ted Lilly, a couple of soft tossing lefthanders. The Giants hit a lot of balls hard. The Dodgers hit a lot of dribblers and dying quails. The Dodgers ended up with a 4-1 lead and then the wheels came completely off in the bottom of the 8'th inning in a horrifying spectacle of bad pitching and worse errors. Key Lines:
Melky Cabrera- 2 for 4. BA= .319. With Sandoval out, Melky looks like the Giants best position player in all phases of the game. As much as I like Melky, and I like him a lot, he should not be the best player in your every day lineup.
Buster Posey- 0 for 3, BB. BA= .312. Buster hit a couple of balls to the deep OF, but on a night like this, ain't nothin' going out of Dodger Stadium. That place can be an absolute beast some nights, maybe even tougher to hit in than Petco Park. Bochy may have to re-think using Buster at first base so much. He looked completely lost out there tonight. Either that, or we're just going to have to grit our teeth and wait out his learning curve. Vin Scully had a stat about how many ground balls Posey hits. After watching him get his bell rung on the foul tip Sunday, I"m not convinced he's really a catcher even without the ankle injury and I'm not sure he's ever going to hit for enough power to be a first baseman, especially one with a marginal glove. This may be heresy, but the Giants might want to look into selling high on Buster.
Joaquin Arias- 3 for 4, 2B. BA= .344. Arias hit the ball hard 4 times and looked good on D too. He may be earning a starting gig here.
Barry Zito- 6 IP, 8 H, 3 R, 4 BB, 3 K's. ERA= 2.21. Another QS for Zito. He gave up a bunch of very weak hits, but the walks hurt.
Hector Sanchez- 0 for 4. BA= .250. Sanchez had some weak swings against the soft junk Lilly was serving up, but was robbed of a 2 RBI double against Belisario. He looked terrific behind the plate. New nickname: The Zito Whisperer!
Ryan Theriot- 0 for 4, BB. BA= .192. Theriot may not have much range, but he can't catch. OMG! Theriot is just a terrible second baseman. Hope we never have to see him try to play SS.
The loss drops the Giants 5 games behind the Dodgers
Ryan Vogelsong gets to try to beat Clayton Kershaw tomorrow evening.
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Dr.B, I couldn't agree more re your Posey analysis. He is greatly overrated. However, at this time, his trade value, Like Lincecum's isn't good. Theriot, Gillaspie are liabilities. Hey, Huff made an out, gee! what are the chances? Stats can often be deceiving, however, G's paucity of jacks and inability to plate runners in scoring position may well consign them to the 2nd div. Ian.
ReplyDeleteAhhh come on fellas. Awful game. Really awful game. BUT.
ReplyDeletePosey has had 100 AB's and only a few months of real gametime. Lets give the guy some time before we start talking about selling on the former rookie of the year. I agree that his value as a first baseman is pretty damn limited, but he can catch and hit .300, even without power that's rare out of a player you still control for a few years. Just a thought - there have been some pretty decent switches from catcher to 3B, obviously that isn't going to happen midseason in a hurry, but I wonder what Buster's ability to play 3B is? He obviously has the arm?
We should have seen this coming a bit. Guys playing out of position, going with hitters over proven veteran defenders - this just isn't the NL West Champion team it once was. We still have some very nice pieces, but this righty-lineup needs some tweaking big time.
Theriot is just horrendous. For some reason I was hoodwinked into thinking that he had versatility because he "could play SS in a pinch," well that's obviously BS. Even against lefties, I'm ready to see the Crawford/Arias combo.
Oh Lord. It's games like this I cannot wait for the Zito/Huff/Rowand's off the books. We need real players who have a defensive position and don't look foolish at the plate.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately:
*I think the league just figured out what Hector Sanchez CAN'T HIT from a left handed pitcher.
*Gillaspie is undoubtedly a AAA player.
*Theriot is an absolute joke out there - his range and arm (and his bat) leave me scratching my head why exactly he is on a big league team? I guess Burriss just got another chance?
*I'm surprised by Buster playing 1B, but I guess it doesn't help a guy adjusting to a new position when Gallaspie and Theriot are making him dance trying not to get shin-burgers over there.
Let's not get our panties in a wad and think we should pull the plug on Posey just yet. Posey is not "overrated," he is a team-controlled, serviceable, .300 hitting catcher. We just don't have the convenience of batting him 6th and expecting less of him like other teams.
We shouldn't get way ahead of ourselves here. Things could be worse. It could be Brian Bocock out there on Opening Day or Mike Fontenot/Bengie Molina batting cleanup. Just a shitty day at the ballpark, hopefully we can plug the hole in the ship before it totally sinks.
AF
Drb,
ReplyDeletegreat nickname for Hector Sanchez LOL!
I'm just happy to have Buster Posey back playing again.. Not sure if I completly agree with your analyis.. While I agree that his value is limited as a 1st baseman, he convinced me back in 2010 that he was definitely an up and coming all star catcher in the making.. It was almost hard to believe how quickly he made it the major leagues, playing a demanding position (catcher), hitting for a high average, and handling a pitching staff that experts say is not easy to catch leading the team to the WS. He was a special player if I ever saw one.. He's coming back from a difficult ankle injury so I say lets give him some time.. I think he's playing well considering what he's been through.
LG
cant arias also play 3rd?
ReplyDeleteriot has gotta go
i thought gillaspie's upside was d?
who woulda thunk on a nite when zito i throwing, people would be angry at everyone but zito?
why do bum fans scream mvp an inning after they are booing kemp for being unable to make a play?
for the same reason those idiots do the wave and play with beach balls
los angeles doesnt deserve good sports franchises
cant trade posey...hes magic
I don't know where you got your scouting but Gillaspie, from the moment he was drafted, was noted as a tweener, not enough power for 3B, not enough D for 2B, might not be even D for 3B, but he's a good disciplined hitter.
DeleteAgree on Posey though!
Bruce Bochy is the worst manager. Brian Sabien is the worst GM. We saw the worst game yesterday.
ReplyDeleteStop platoon! Huff and Riot are garbage. They both have to be released.
Free Belt! SS Crawford, 2B Arias, 3B Burris...I remember Burris played well at 3B.
No more lefies and righties lineup. It is killing us.
But Sabien and Bochy will never do the right thing.
We have no hope unless they leave.
Interesting comments, all.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm probably over-reacting to a tough night for Buster. I'm must remembering back to last year before the ankle injury. He was getting killed back there by foul tips. He calls a great game. He has a terrific arm. He's decent at blocking balls. He just seems to get nailed by foul tips a lot more than most catchers and I worry about that. You have to wonder if some of his problems at 1B last night might have been a residual effect of getting nailed on Sunday.
Gillaspie has always been a weak armed third baseman. His arm is probably better suited to 2B or 1B but he doesn't have the athleticism for 1B and not enough bat for 1B. I think if he can get going at the plate he can be a high average hitter with some doulbes power and a relatively high OBP. Kinda Bill Mueller lite?
This is a far different lineup with Pablo in it so lets not get going with the Sabean/Bochy hate just because their best hitter is on the DL.
Nate has had two good AB's in a row. Maybe time to get him back out there? Either that or just put Blanco out there every day and let him lead off. Kind of agree with the L-R thing not being so great. I would have liked to see what Belt could do against a soft tosser like Lilly last night.
OK, lets not get too crazy here. No need to ship Buster. Vin Scully is hopping on an early season trend of GB/FB like a passive aggressive jackal. In his ROY season the ratio was 1.47. In early going it is 2.05. The premier player in the game, Matt Kemp (boo him some more bum fans) had a 1.40 his first full year and has since turned it to about a 1/1 ratio give or take.
ReplyDeleteIt was the BAD NEWS BEARS out there last night though!
I'll say this again: Brandon Belt needs to play in games like this over Brett Pill. Taking him out because of the L/R split is weak sauce. Ted Lilly and his 87 MPH fastball might be able to exploit this black hole in Belt's swing, or maybe he gets tagged. On a night like this, long balls do die in Doyer Stadium.
Arias sure gave one a ride. He had great ABs, looks like he will need to hold down 3B for a bit. Conor G is ineffective, and we've seen enough of the clankmitt to know its time to grab something else. Everybody poo poo'd Brandon Inge. Well... Right handed sure gloved vet with a bit of power and position versatility...
Hector Sanchez did indeed K 3 times. He did work the count to 3-0, but both him and Brett Pill are having trouble with major league breaking stuff. Guess what? Nobody throws that stuff anywhere but the majors. Its a rough adjustment. Too bad Looney made a helluva play, it changed the game completely.
I saw flashes, serious flashes, of the old school Barry Zito. He has some complete lock up curves. He didn't put away Uribe and Ethier off of 1-2 counts, but his control was much better. He got deked to death. Pitching with purpose. Pretty incredible actually. People have been on Sanchez' D, I don't see it. Called a good game, gunned Dee Gordon, and took the knocks, which is what we need this year to rest Posey.
Comically bad beat, and this is a green team, but our pitching will keep us floating. Bochy hopefully tore them a new one about the defense. That has to stop. Its the biggest problem by the factor of 10.
At this point I would rather call up Charlie Culberson to play second rather than play Theriot. At least you would be giving a player possibly in the Giants future to try to produce. It is the same as having Miguel Tejada out there. A guy who is not in the Giants future stinking out there. Until then we should have Arias at 2B and Burriss at 3B. Conor is most likely a AAAA player and is not in the Giants plans for the future.
ReplyDeleteLet's see ugly game - that was winnable until the Looney play in the 8th. Zito pitched a QS. This is one of the few games the Giants have really blown up. And you guys want to:
ReplyDeletea. trade Posey
b. Dump Hector, Pill, The Riot, Gillaspie
Look the game sucked from the bottom 8th on, so in 1.5 innings you want the above?
OGC time to roll out your business plan to move Posey? Really. Posey is coming off a MAJOR injury and it is amazing he is even on the field 4 of every 5 games. If you are going to be dispassionate (business like) about player's values, then don't jump in after 20 games and start waving a for sale sign. Save the analysis for end of 2013 (after a full healthy year) on Posey. Or maybe ask the pitchers who they want behind the plate in the WS.
Of course Gillaspie is getting exposed. We knew he was a fair to bad glove and he's facing MLB pitching. And we expected what to be different?
Arias is the eye opener to me. Either your starting SS or 2B for 2012. Hopefully beyond.
Agree with Shank on Hector. Stepping into MLB catcher from A+ ball is really tough. As Posey's backup he has been more than adequate - he is a tough kid with real upside potential. Or perhaps you want the 2011 version of backup catchers.
Nate is hot again - really. I think not. The Riot no more. Please start Blanco, on this team right now he is the only real catalyst available.
I think Bochy needs to play more for steady fielding D and small ball right now. Has to cut back on the RH/LH splits that are driving inconsistency of playing time and defense.
Voggie please put up zeros for 6+ and hitters please work the count, because we got to get Kershaw out of the game to win. Go Giants.
Shark, I agree with you for the most part. I do, however, think we've seen enough of Theriot and know the trajectory of his career to understand he's got to be the last butt off the pine or cut loose. I'd rather see Culby too, but we all know the dangers of bringing up a guy and not making up our mind (Belt).
ReplyDeleteI think Blanco's D and ability to take pitches and handle the bat at least merit a small look against a left hander. Same goes for Belt. People forget that part of his game is a plus defender at first. Lets see him bat 6th or 7th against a left hander.
While we're all talking about the wretched D from last night, I just want to point out that Brett Pill took some very... errrrm.... interesting routes to baseballs. No errors, but he's not so sure what's going on out there either.
Gillaspie is who he is. Obviously the Giants wanted a lefty option with Pablo out. I'm not opposed to trying Arias there again (despite his issues at the end of Spring) and using Burriss at second? Crawford has to figure in here at some point. Can't make comments that he'll be the every day shortstop, then 20 games into the season put him on the bench because his "bat is weak against a lefthander" when Gillaspie is in the lineup...
Pagan CF (switch)
Blanco RF (left)
Cabrera RF (switch)
Posey C (right)
Belt 1B (left)
Arias 3B (right)
Burris 2B (switch)
Crawford SS (left)
At least put some speed in the lineup, hope they get on base and make all the routine plays. Thoughts?
AF
Get Kershaw out of the game any way possible. Work the count, get speed on the bases, make productive outs, hope Voggie keeps it to 1 run against.
DeleteI think The Riot stays due to Bochy's love of vet batting grit - which The Riot occasionally displays. It did pay off with Renteria in the WS. But can't run him out there every day anymore, just like Renteria. Could Culbie help, maybe? But throwing more untested rooks into the mix right now may be not so good. Not saying I am happy with this, just saying.
If Kershaw is his usual dominant self again tonight, I say the hitters need to go up there and at least try to foul off pitches. Do whatever it takes to lengthen his pitch count as much as possible. If you can get him to throw just 2 extra pitches in inning, that adds up to possibly 1 less inning you have to face him. 1 extra pitch per batter and you might get him out as much as an inning sooner. Just make the guy throw pitches!!
DeleteI don't know if it's the body language out there, or what. I just have this uneasy feeling, and I've had it from way before the ankle injury, that Buster, deep down in his soul, does not really believe he's a catcher. The guy is a great competitor and would try to run through a brick wall if that's what he thought was required of him, but I don't see the same enthusiasm for the position I see from a Hector or a Bengie Molina(ducks and runs).
ReplyDeleteI see a little more swagger, and I think he might have converted 5 pds to muscle. Looks leaner and meaner, and a tad bit more mature. There is a whole lot of concern among Giants fans about Buster's future, and its definitely no fun to see Buster take the punishment of foul balls off his mask for example, even before the injury people were going crazy about that. I want to see him play some more. He had a bad game last night. Sometimes that happens. I have to disagree about his body language at this point.
DeleteI was watching/concerned about Buster's body language back in early 2011. He looks the same this year. I just think that's the way he comports himself. It's a real reserved, almost muted way of moving that makes him look unenthusiastic. Especially when he's behind the plate. I don't know what to make of it, except not too much. (Tejada, by contrast, looked and moved very enthusiastically. So, yeah.)
DeleteI don't think it's THAT crazy to consider moving Buster. I agree, not now, while his value is lower following the injury. But, let's see how the catching develops. An opportunity might emerge. Herschel Walker type trade and all of that. That goes for Timmy too. It's the nature of the game. Gotta evolve and turn over the roster. If we can get paid on a player's rep rather than his diminished performance, then go get it.
Because Buster needs games where he doesn't catch, because we have 3 1st basemen, because we need a SS who can field AND hit, we have way too many people playing out-of-position. And for a team that needs D, well, what did we expect the results to be?
First of all, I think Crawfords days as the starting SS are officially over. Any arguments Shankbone? Second, Posey should have the flex to play just about anywhere on the diamond but I am not sure we need to move him just yet. I like your thought process Dr. B as it shows that you aren't like many Giants fans who can't fathom trading one of our homegrown babies and you also realize what I have seen with Posey at the plate which is that he is not a cleanup hitter.
DeleteBefore the season I made several statements about concern for this offense and the fact that we really haven't done much to upgrade with just adding Pagan and Melky and I threw out several names like Rollins, Cuddyer, even Pujols! Although I think when all is said and done, Pujols will still have 30 and 100 but I am glad we aren't stuck with him. As for the other 2 guys, I can't see Cuddy being any worse at 2B then Theriot and Rollins would have given us either a true leadoff hitter or a solid 3 hole hitter and neither would have broken the bank.
Instead, Sabes went for pitching and paid Affeldt 5 mil which lots of people here were supportive of and he eventually locked up Cain and MadBum which were solid moves. The problem is that he did little else as insurance in case we lost a key offensive player or had an underperforming starting pitcher and now we are left with a team that looks a hell of a lot like what we had last year or worse. I love the fight in these guys and I still think that Pill, Hector, and even Belt can eventually be productive major leaguers but when we are relying on all of them to perform right now with limited positions to put them, the result is going to be a .500 team that misses the playoffs yet again.
I also said that if we missed the playoffs yet again this year it would be time for a shake up. I stand by this statement today and am anticipating that is what will end up happening as this team is not built to overcome adversity and needed everything to go right with the players in place to win. Obviously there was no way to predict the decimation of the bullpen and Pablo going down but they should have known that Freddie was not coming back and Wilson was also a question mark. They did nothing to add insurance and subsequently we are left with a lot of promising young players who can't be counted on to carry this team.
I look at other teams around the league who are in 1st place and even teams from last year like St. Louis who don't have the dominant pitching that we do but are still able to win games. I think the formula of investing 80% of the payroll in pitching is flawed and if Sabes can't adjust then at the end of the year they should look at going in a different direction. I have advocated trading Timmy which hasn't exactly made me popular around here but his trade value is falling along with his performance and for that 20 mil a year we could almost have both Cuddy and Rollins, 2 veteran bats that this lineup sorely needs right now as well as the prospects we would have gotten for Timmy and we still would have had a dominant pitching staff.
I am tired of excuses, I didn't hear St. Louis crying about losing Wainwright at the beginning of last year but I can guarantee that Sabes is going to use the excuses of Wilson, Freddie, Pablo, and the rest of the banged up players when answering questions on why we didn't make the playoffs again this year. He has been here longer then any other GM in baseball and should have done a better job putting this team together after what the offense did last year and with the amount of fans coming out every game to support them. He traded Matt Williams back in the day because he knew they couldn't win with both him and Bonds and nothing else so he shouldn't have any trepidations about trading Timmy and getting this team balanced again.
What are you guys smoking today?
DeleteBuster's body language won a WS at age 22 as a rookie. He suffers a MAJOR injury and comes back sooner and better than most would expect and you are ready to proclaim he's not a catcher, trade him! This kid is gold, ask the pitchers who throw to him. As for body language please leave that stuff to Grant at MCC. I come here for reality-based discussion, not palm reading.
Now the discussion of trading/extending Timmy at year end is going to be a good one.
As for not making the playoffs this year, can we at least wait until the end of the Bums series to discuss. Or maybe until September.
Nice comment Pato. Here's what I got:
DeleteFirst, as you know from Lefty's site, we're going to the game together. However, Kershaw is a left handed pitcher last time I checked, so while I see where you are going, I cannot concede that bet at this moment. If Arias is in versus a RH, you do have the win, don't worry.
Second, the St. Louis no crying comment: they have a superstar to fall back on, and they have a very well run organization that has fed the most major leaguers onto the big team in the last ten or so years. Contrast that with our punt a pick strategy (and Sabean/RDF are BOTH to blame for that). You need a strategy, and you need a minor league factory. There are signs that is happening, but I think its fair to be a bit cynical about these guys.
Third, flawed pitcher/hitter balance. Sometimes you don't have that choice. No team has hit like the Giants did 3 years straight. There is a nice foundation that is ahead of schedule.
Off season moves? Brian Wilson strikes me as a guy who is going to go in and tell Sabean exactly what is going on. I think keeping the pen had everything to do with Wilson. He has been relieved to have the cat out of the bag, and references giving his all to get the 2010 ring. You have to take the moves in order and not pick em apart on monday morning.
That said, I was right with you with Cuddyer as a player of interest, due to RH bat lineup balance and position versatility. I also had trouble with the lineup counting up HRs. But what Sabean did was an interesting one year stopgap, I still think it has a lot of promise. Its not going to be pretty necessarily. But we're only 29 games in. Lets evaluate at 40 or 50 games, see what adjustments come. Then at 80 or 100 games. The pitching will pave over a fair amount of silliness. I do agree with you, I see a need to tilt the odds in the Giants favor more. Not sure if I agree on trading off the core, but it is most likely a valid point, we won't be able to keep everybody.
Oh, and snap, Crawford in the lineup against Kershaw. Ho ho ho. Definitely not laying the bet down Pato. Belt is in versus Kershaw, great. The big thing is, he'd better be in the next lineup no matter his performance. That's what is important at this junction.
DeleteAlso I had a bad typo, St Louis HAD a superstar last year.
Team is meeting adversity and is 5 games out of first with 29 played. Sabean has thrown in his first line of defense - the reclamation projects. Mixed in are some farm guys. Next move will be the sideways trade, marginal pieces that may or may not hit. This MO is pretty easy to read by now. Basically its tread water until you get Pablo back and hopefully get a spark. The pitching will get you that.
G's had a guy with blazing speed, Darren Ford, who now plays for Seattle.Problem is, he can't steal 1st, that's probably why he was dealt. Hey, the very fact we're commenting on this great blog, is that we care about the Giants. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and we all have what we perceive, are solutions to a team that is currently in a funk. Am I the only one here with ambivalent feelings. Sometimes I want G's players I'm down, to fail, so they'll be demoted or moved. There seems to be consensus re Theriot, Huff, Gillaspie. I want you to envision what would happen to the Dodgers if Kemp was lost for the season.The S.F.Giants did finally win a World Series 2 years ago. Nobody can take that away from us. But I do wonder how many of us would settle for no World Series games for several years but during those years, provide the excitement that a trio of sluggers like Mays, McCovey and Cepeda could give us. No WS then because we'd no pitching.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
DeleteLook I have lived with the Giants from '64. Have seen plenty of dingerz from Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Bonds1, Bonds2, etc, but no WS until 2010. Would I trade the last 46 years of dingerz for a WS, damn right. I appreciate the torture it takes to be a Giants fan with our pitching. So yes, I am patient with building an average offense with the young players we have.
I hope buster can get back to the way he was when he first came up. Then, he was a line drive hitter and would make solid contact every time. Now it seems that every time he hits a grounder, even if he gets a hit because he uses the whole field he needs to have more line drives.
ReplyDeleteEveryone has knee jerk reactions but they are based on reality and the reality is that Buster has shown some weaknesses. Should we trade him tomorrow or forever banish him to RF... no but it is realistic to think about these concerns as they aren't based on just a game or two. Exploring options like this are what good GM's do. You don't have to act on them but if you never even consider them, you end up with a 20 million dollar pitcher that you almost signed for 8 years who looks like a right handed Zito the last 5 starts.
ReplyDeleteThis team has a ton of heart and no matter how much talent they lack on offense they keep going like the energizer bunny. I love that about them but I also feel sorry for players like Crawford and Belt and all of our great pitchers who must feel like the weight of the world on their shoulders. When you have a player like Pujols or Bonds who has shoulders big enough to carry the weight of the world, it allows the rest of the lineup to relax a little more and when you have veterans like we had when we won the worlds series (Huff, Burrell, Uribe) who have career years (especially in October), that also helps a lot. We don't have those veterans right now and to expect the young players to step it up is wishful thinking.
In reference to building a team around pitching, take a look at the standings and you will see that all but one team in first place have comparable starting pitching to the Giants. Tampa Bay is tied with Baltimore for first and the rest of the first place teams (Baltimore, St. Louis, Texas, Cleveland, LA, and Washington) have a mixed bag of starting pitchers and some have an ace on their staff but none of them have the talent that we have. Now, when you make it into the playoffs it is extremely advantageous to be able to march out 4 studs like we can but you have to make it there first. Even if you don't have great starters like Texas and St. Louis last year, it is still possible to go all the way. It is little things like this that I think about when we struggle to score more then a run or two a game while teams like Cleveland, Washington, Baltimore and the Dodgers are all in first place.
I really wouldn't pay too much attention to who is in first place 5 weeks into the season. Do you really think Baltimore and Cleveland are going to be around in September?
DeleteIf the Giants can survive until Pablo gets back, I think they'll be OK.
And. Kershaw blinks first tonight.
ReplyDeletePill in LF just doesn't get me amped up, but hey, he goes yard on Kershaw... i'll shut up for a couple games before I start moaning again.
Shark, just as I agreed with you before, I'll stand by you again. WTH is everyone on? Posey is a kid that at his worst is a league average catcher... one that is team-controlled, has the respect of an elite pitching staff, never caused a fuss in the clubhouse and an absolute fan favorite. Give the guy a season to get his legs back under him before we start throwing him overboard on a ship that is sinking for a lot of reasons that doesn't really include his play.
Arias at 3B over Gillaspie is a smart choice in my opinion. Just keep doin that Boch!
When are we going to see Hembree and Melonhead Jr.?
AF