Even the most ardent of Brian Sabean's detractors, and there are still a lot of holdouts out there, grudgingly admit that he deserves some credit for putting together the championship team of 2010. They are quick to add, though, that he just got lucky. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. The theory goes that he was "lucky" to have a series of high draft picks which were supposedly slam dunks to produce MLB stars and then he had a string of luck with mid-season acquisitions and it all ended up in a perfect storm of luck to produce the 2010 championship. Most of the "detractors" have even conceded that the Barry Zito signing was probably done at the insistence of Peter Magowan. A lingering argument, which on the surface seems to have some merit, is that the team was unprepared for the Post-Bonds era and went through an unnecessary drought to get the high draft picks and eventually rebound to win the 2010 World Series.
Did Brian Sabean really just forget about preparing for the post-Bonds era? Not so fast there, detractors! Remember a trio of pitching prospects, Kurt Ainsworth, Jesse Foppert and Jerome Williams, AKA AFW? By now, it should be obvious that at the core of his soul, Brian Sabean believes in building a team around pitching, homegrown pitching! With that in mind, and the knowledge that in 2003, he had assembled one of the most impressive trifectas of pitching prospects in the history of baseball can lead one to conclude that Brian Sabean had indeed prepared for the post-Bonds era and he saw the future as being based on pitching, pitching and more pitching. I know there is a nemonic known as TINSTAAP, There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect, but it's pretty hard to find a similar run of monumental bad luck than the complete failure of 3 such highly ranked pitching prospects in succession.
Kurt Ainsworth was the Giants first round draft pick in 1999 out of LSU. I can't confirm this right now, but I believe he had undergone Tommy John Surgery at some point in his amateur career, but even in those days, TJ survivors frequently came back stronger than before the injury. Ainsworth didn't have overpowering stuff, but he could get his fastball up to 92 MPH and he had terrific command of two fastballs, slider, curve and changeup. In 2002, he had a record of 8-6 with an ERA of 3.41 at age 23 for AAA Fresno which is pretty good given league and park effects. He pitched in 25.2 innings for the Giants at the end of 2002 with an ERA of 2.10. He began the 2003 season in the Giants rotation and went 5-4 with an ERA of 3.82 over 66 IP, I remember one start in particular against the Dodgers where he threw something like 27 first pitch strikes and had all 5 of his pitches working. It was a thing of beauty. Alas, he went on the DL with a stress fracture of the right scapula, a rare injury, and was never the same again. He was later traded with Damien Moss to the Orioles for Sidney Ponson where his shoulder basically fell apart with both a labrum tear and a torn rotator cuff. Again, I may be wrong here, but I think I remember him also re-injuring his TJ repaired right elbow.
Jerome Williams was drafted in the supplemental first round of the 1999 draft out of high school in Hawaii. Despite being drafted out of high school, he progressed rapidly through the Giants farm system. Although he was somewhat inconsistent, the scouting reports were mostly positive having him with a FB up to 94 MPH and a rapidly developing changeup, slider and feel for pitching. During his development, he raised a few eyebrows by talking about dialing down the fastball to achieve better command and increasing his reliance on the changeup. Williams got his first callup in 2003 and pitched very well, going 7-5 with a 3.30 ERA during a Giants run that ended with a NLDS loss to the Florida Marlins in which he was the center of a controversy about who should start a must-win game. Williams showed up to spring training in 2004 looking visibly overweight, but eventually got into decent shape and put together a solid, if unspectacular, 10-7 record with a 4.24 ERA. After that, something went terribly wrong in his life. He married a girl from Fresno, seemed to lose interest in playing baseball, became grossly overweight, was demoted to the minors and eventually traded to the Cubs for LaTroy Hawkins. Despite numerous attempts with numerous organizations, including the Giants, he was never able to get his career back on track. He is currently signed to a minor league deal with the Angels.
Jesse Foppert was drafted in the second round of the 2001 draft out of USF. He immediately started putting up eye-popping numbers in the minor league and rocketed through the Giants farm system. Reports started surfacing in Baseball America of 97 MPH fastballs thrown with an effortless delivery. He split time in 2002 between AA and AAA and struck out a total of 183 batters. Entering 2003, he was BA's #5 overall prospect and the top ranked pitching prospect in all of baseball. He was brought up to the majors early in 2003 after an injury to Ryan Jensen. His arrival was possibly the most anticipated and most disappointing of any in the entire history of the Giants organization. He never once displayed the legendary fastball velocity that had been reported in the minors usually sitting at 87-90 MPH. His results were mediocre at best. On August 20, 2003 he went on the DL with "ulnar neuritis". He received a cortisone shot and while throwing in practice, felt a pop in the elbow and soon after underwent TJ surgery. Unlike many pitchers who have undergone the procedure, "Foppy" never made it back. He was traded from the Fresno roster to the Seattle Mariners in 2005 along with Yorvit Torrealba for Randy Winn. He never regained his once legendary form and now lives in Greenbrae where he is the pitching coach at Marin Catholic High School.
Brian Sabean wasn't content with just "AFW" in the organization. He drafted Matt Cain in 2002. After winning the NL Pennant in 2002, he traded Russ Ortiz to the Braves for Damien Moss and a young fireballing RHP named Manuel Mateo who soon rocketed to the top of BA's prospect lists and changed his name to his true identity of Merkin Valdez who was a few months older than Manuel Mateo. At one point in 2003, the Giants future rotation seemed set as far as the eye could see into the future. AFW plus Cain and Valdez were about as good as it gets in pitching prospects. Of the 5, only Cain would reach the stardom that was predicted for all of them to one degree or another. They were the Giants future that would carry on after Barry Bonds left the scene. There was even a good chance that some or all of them might help end the Bonds era with a long elusive championship!
Those who dismiss Brian Sabean's success in 2010 should also acknowledge that he also suffered a run of monumentally bad luck in the failure of "AFW". Even acknowledging TINSTAAP, which I don't personally believe in that much, it is hard to find a comparable run of bad luck in the development of a group of highly ranked pitching prospects.
We will never know how history might have been different had "AFW" succeeded, if even one of that trio had "made it." Perhaps they would not have been as dominant as Timmy, MadBum and Buster. Perhaps they would have been just good enough to help the Giants contend but never win it all, thus depriving the Giants of the chance to draft the core of the championship team. We'll never know, but as I like to say, "all things work together for good."
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Sweet write-up Doc. I was a little young to understand the prospect system in the late 90's/early 2000's and am glad to learn a few things from this one.
ReplyDeleteAgree or disagree, I think it is great to have some meat behind the Sabean story a lot of people argue based on very straightforward ideas.
Wow, I completely agree with JazzHands. I've only been following the Giants minor league system for a few years, so all I remember of the "Big AFW" is 3 shoddy pitchers. I never knew any of them were so highly regarded.
ReplyDeleteJust goes to show, players have to produce in the bigs no matter how high they are regarded in the minors. And all "luck" aside, I'll never give back the memories from last year's WS run. Great read!
Nice writeup DrB. There might be some luck involved in winning the World Series, but it shows that management did a lot of right things too, such as drafting Cain, Timmy, etc.. I'm glad Sabean didn't trade J Sanchez for offense, otherwise they don't win the WS. Sabean gets a lifetime pass for winning it all!
ReplyDeleteIt didn't help preparing for the post Bonds era either, signing those old free agents like Dave Roberts, Mike Matheny, Omar Vizqual, etc to play with Bonds.. Some of these players cost the Giants high draft picks which delayed their rebuilding.
I had high hopes for those 3 pitchers. Jerome was from Hawaii so he had a lot of fans here. I don't know if this is true, but I remember reading that the reason he was traded was that he didn't listen Rags advice.. I had high hopes for Fopport, too bad about his injury problems.
Great article!!!
ReplyDeleteJerome ate his way off the Giants. Some people were comparing him with Doc Gooden early on.
Foppert reportedly hid an injury that spring and just basically continued pitching until his body broke. He was a Lincecum esque level talent, to my thinking.
We only lost first round picks for Tucker and Benitez. And neither pick turned out for the other team. And the thing is, my draft study showed that such a pick do not turn into a good player around 90% of the time.
For Sabean to luck into winning, that means he lucked into assembling, and not trading, the young core of the team, Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgarner, Wilson, Romo, Posey, Sandoval. Really, you are going to luck into all that?
And these deluded fans conveniently forget that if the Giants had listened to their various grand ideas for improving the team, they would have traded away Lincecum or Cain for Rios, Sanchez for Cory Hart (or less), Bumgarner for a bat, or picked Smoak over Posey (Poozers! Grant of MCC conveniently forgot that he wrote that column after the draft!). Do these people really think the 2010 Giants win without any of these players?
I say thank goodness the Giants had the sense to keep on giving Sabean extensions, there probably were not many who joined me on MCC to celebrate his contracts, and I took crap, but I can look myself in the mirror when I celebrate the Giants championship. Everyone should thank Sabean.
So I heartily applaud DrB for this great post regarding the delusions some fans are still clinging too.
Team of the Decade, Baby! The 2010's will be known as the Giants decade!
I think Williams' problem started when his mother passed away. I hope the Giants' are better at watching after their young players. After all, these are 17 to 22 year old kids. It is still amazing at how poorly minor league players are treated given how valuable they could be/are.
ReplyDeleteI really question the competency of the Giants' medical staff of that era. The steroid use, Froppert's "hidden" injury, Lowry's case. I was not sad to see Stan Conte leave.
Enjoyed the article Doc!
ReplyDeleteSabean's philosophy has long been to draft pitching and sign FA hitting. (I realize that your article is a response of sorts to claims that he was not prepared for the post-Bonds era.) And I'd think we all agree that it has been hit and mostly miss when it comes to his FA hitter signings.
And I was really questioning (circa 2007-2009) whether that philosophy was feasible, as the really solid hitters were not going FA, but rather getting signed to extensions.
I think it's fair to question Sabean's methods in light of bringing in players like Ryan Klesko or Edgardo Alfonso to hold down starting roles. Or a player like Miguel Tejada.
You get in a position where the farm system becomes almost completely barren of bats for decade and fans get to question what is happening. I was beside myself when we got into a position in 2007 where the only option was resign a Pedro Feliz. And we gave him a RAISE!!! There was no one else. I Sabean painted us into a corner and was not fully aware of how the FA market was evolving. (I'm no genius...we're talking a little hindsight here)
And Obsessive, yes, you're commenting on the lunatic fringe, who throw out all manner of ill-conceived banana-pants ideas. Don't lump those of us who do have a constructive complaint about how Sabean does business with the reactive nuts.
I forgot to include Brad Hennessey and Noah Lowry, two second tier pitching prospects from the same era. Hennessey's development was delayed by a rare tumor on his spine that had to be surgically removed twice. We all know Noah Lowry's story.
ReplyDeleteI too was critical of Sabean's dumping of draft picks in for 2 years. The worst was signing Michael Tucker a few hours early intentionally so he would lose the first round draft pick. So, I guess I disagree with OGC a bit there even though I agree on the overall notion that Sabean is a much better GM than most people give him credit for and I'm glad he's still around.
The point about the farm system being devoid of hitting talent at one point is valid. John Barr was brought into the scouting department specifically to address that issue. Sabean's thinking has evolved over time.
Nice write-up Dr B,
ReplyDeleteYou could add (no polemic here)Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano and even Kevin Correia and you see that with some luck, the Giants could have assembled a full Major league roster just with homegrown pitchers. So many potential , so many different kind of frustration.
So we deserved some luck with pitching prospect.
Also let me now enjoy the pleasure to see the minor league system hitting prospect get some success with the Sandoval, Posey, Belt , Brown, Neal and hopefully others. I was fed up to ear that the last major league hitter we had developped was Bill Mueller and that we had to trade our pitching for major league hitter. So thank you Sabean for all your failures and your successes, it was what the Giants were all about since I begun to follow this team. Let's hope like OGC said that the Giants are the team of the decade
GIP
Anon,
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, at one point I think BA made a comment something to the effect of "They don't have much hitting in the system, but nobody has more pitching than the Giants." It's really a shame that the vast majority of all that pitching didn't work out for one strange reason after another. The "luck", starting with the drafting of Matt Cain has been decidedly better over the last 8-9 years.
I agree with DrB. I remember thinking that if they keep signing older veterans to play with Bonds and losing high draft picks in the process, it would catch up with them. In 2005, they lost their 1st 3 picks signing Benitez, Matheney, and Vizquel. In 2007 they lost their 2nd through 4th round picks for signing Zito, Aurilla, and D Roberts although they had 3 1st round and 3 supplemental picks that year. Zito and Bonds played one year together in 2007. If Zito was signed to help prepare for post Bonds, then that's another big factor that led to the drought. Then again thats ok because it all ended up well in 2010!!
ReplyDeleteI always followed the old adage, "Luck is a product of hard work and perserverance". Fate? Luck? Timmy was passed over as well as Posey. Sabean and his people have made some pretty decent moves but yet there had to be some fodder for the Lunatic Fringe, myself to a certain degree.
ReplyDeleteAfter that 1998 draft, a weaker man might have taken up golf. The first round picks for the years 1993 through 2003 still makes my stomach groan. Sabean should have thrown this scouting staff in the bay. Somewhere along the way he found someone that had a rabbit's foot. That may be the biggest difference in the way Sabean has done business lately. Can he do it again? Maybe, but nothing can come close to last year.
Sabean did what only 2 GMs have done, since I could tie my shoes, for NY or SF. Shut up Lunatic Fringe!