The Giants offense continued to struggle and they finally fell victim to a big inning late by the Angels. Key Lines:
Angel Pagan- 1 for 5, 2B. BA= .179. Well, 1 hit is better than none.
Gregor Blanco- 2 for 4, 2B, 2 SB(11). BA= .356. Is Nate going to lose his job to another spring phenom?
Sandoval and Huff added doubles.
Brandon Belt- 1 for 4. BA= .370. According to Baggs, the Giants aren't thrilled by Belt's setup at the plate and feel he still needs to work on some things despite the lofty spring numbers. Now THAT, is going to get the pitchfork mob going! That Baggs! He is quite the little instigator, isn't he?
Tim Lincecum- 5 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 BB, 2 K's. ERA= 4.26. I didn't see the game, but Timmy thought his fastball command was a bit off.
Otero, Mota, Edlefsen- 1 scoreless inning each.
Yusmeiro Petit gets the start against division rival Dodgers tomorrow afternoon in Scottsdale.
Speaking of the Dodgers, a group headed by Magic Johnson and Stan Kasten agreed to purchase the Dogs for $2 Billion, that's right, $2 Billion! Man, did the McCourts get the last laugh out of this or what? Let's just hope there is no money left over to pay players with! Seriously, if Magic Johnson has anything to say about it, the Dodgers will become the Yankees West or the Baseball Lakers. He is all about paying star players lots of money and Showtime and all that.
Around the League:
Freddie Freeman hit two dingers for the second game in a row for the Braves. Woohoo, Savvy Vets!
Alejandro De Aza homered in 4 AB's for the White Sox.
I missed out on Eric Hosmer in my auction draft. Dude is seriously raking with 2 more dingers today.
Mike Napoli blasted a pair too.
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i knew from the moment that he announced he would be heading a group, magic was gonna win the bid. if tomorrow, magic declared himself, king of los angeles, people would be lining the streets to bring him tribute.
ReplyDeletehowever, without also getting the parking, and what that entails...2 bil is a hefty price
as for the giants...the offense is the offense...its gonna cost this org cain
as for belt....basically the org cannot shop huff, need pill as backup and cant shop nate (or dont want to) so, belt is going back to fresno, cuz he has options
i really hope that both sabean and bochy sit him down and explain the biz side to him...so he doesnt think this really has anything to do with performance
Just sped watched the game... Pill missed a walk off grand slam by a few feet. I like him - he makes loud contact, and the Giants have a big problem with weak grounders from our pinch hitters. He came to the plate and I was excited to see something happen.
ReplyDeletePagan got picked off right after the double. It was a pretty slick move, but still... Then struck out to end the game. I stand by my guy. Its spring training. Still - Blanco roped a ground rule double, and stole third even though the throw beat him.
Maybe the timing on Magic and the Doyers will scare the RDF crew into a better offer. If Cain is actually looking for 'fair value' and not asking for the moon. I am lost on this now.
Belt will be our 1B next year and Huff will be gone. If you take that step back, things aren't so dire. The long term view is solid. I am a bit leery of the Giants tinkering with an approach that got him where he is, not sure how I feel about that one.
The Dodgers deal is not yet done. The MLB could fight it. Reportedly it is being structured so that the future revenues of a large media contract would be used to pay down the debt being used to purchase the club. The MLB doesn't like that because it doesn't leave enough revenue to operate the team in the long run. Only one it benefits is McCourt. The MLB had the same problem with Morad and the attempted purchase of the Padres. Stay tuned.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnd Dustin Ackley goes 2 for 5, HR, 2 R, 2 Ribeyes and a SB for Savvy Vets!
ReplyDeleteThe new Dodger owners are an even better reason to sign Matt Cain. I don't care how much money you have to spend, if you cannot find quality pitching, you will go nowhere. Look what happened to the Red Sox last year. They have all the talent in the world at the plate but lack the quality arms. We cannot afford to let Cain walk. I assume he wants a Cliff Lee contract of 5/120MM and we probably want to pay around 5/100MM. The question is what is 20MM over 5 years. The answer is 4MM a year but the answer I was hoping to hear is nothing much. It means maybe we can't go pay that aging veteran 6MM a year like we do every year. So what!. Maybe instead of getting DeRosa, Klesko, Tejada, etc we give Pill, Crawford, Peguero, etc a chance. 4MM a year should not be the reason why he leaves. It would be a sad day when he puts on Dodger blue and pitches at Chavez Latrine. The other issue is the Diamondbacks. They have really good controllable pitching for the next 3+ years with Hudson, Kennedy, and Cahill. They are going to be in the race for years to come. I am not saying to sign Timmy as well because I think we all know he probably won't resign, but keeping Cain and Bumgarner together should be a top priority. Hopefully by the time Timmy is gone we will have 2-3 guys from the minors that are ready to pitch. Maybe they will consist of Surkamp, Crick, Blackburn, or Mejia. I do not think we should let Timmy walk in 2014. I think we could get a kings ransom from teams like the Red Sox or Yankees. We could get 4-5 quality prospects or 2-3 quality prospects and a major league ready guy. I am thinking Ivan Nova, Manny Banuelos, and maybe 1-2 mid to high prospects sounds nice start.
ReplyDeleteWell, you could say the same thing about the difference between 5/120 and 5/140 and just keep ratcheting it up. At some point you do reach a point where you've way overvalued the player and have hamstrung yourself for the future. If Cain wants to hold out for full FA market value a full season before he hits FA, what he's really saying is he WANTS to be a FA, which is, unfortunately, what it sounds like from a quote he reportedly gave to Jon Heyman yesterday. Well, if the Giants have to pay full FA market value, there is no point in taking on that one season of risk before the actual bidding begins. There will be 4 or 5 pitchers of similar quality to Cain on the market this upcoming FA season. Maybe they can get one for substantially less than what Cainer is demanding now.
DeleteHang on there, that's Agent 101. Get the biggest shill there is in the national press corps, tell Cain to pause at the question and say he's looking forward to FA. Hell, Cain is no dummy, he'll do that on his own.
DeleteThere is the possibility he just wants to go. No way to know until it happens.
6/120MM is market rate, they should pay that. If it stretches beyond that, yes, there is also Hamels and Greinke. Right now. I don't think there is anybody else of that quality, youth, track record and durability though. But all 3 of these pitchers are most likely breaking the nine figure barrier. It might be worth taking a chance on Greinke being the last guy standing at the dance and grabbing a bargain though. I'd rather they just lock up Cain.
DrB,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying but I am talking if the price he would want is within 4-5MM a year of what you are willing to pay. Obviously when it starts going to 8-10MM a year more then you are willing to pay then you wish him well. With Huff and Rowand coming off soon and Zito in a few years plus added that our farm system is starting to produce decent position players like Belt, Brown, etc. it isn't such a big risk. So, whether it is 100MM or 120MM we shouldn't just give up. 150MM and it doesn't look like it will work out.
I think it is pretty clear that Cain wants to be a FA and unless the Giants somehow miraculously get a deal done in the next week, he is going to be playing for another team next year. I can't think of a single example of a player who has negotiated with his original team and not resigned only to resign once he has become a free agent. I also think that if the Giants aren't willing to pay over 100 mil now, they won't be willing to pay it after this year either for Cain or any other pitcher. I am ok with all of this but under the condition that they trade Cain this year and get something for him before he leaves. Heck, if anyone thinks there is a chance he will resign once he becomes a FA then why not trade him for prospects and then resign him after this year? Bottom line is that this season is looking like it will be very tumultuous which means we can look forward to one of three scenarios this year:
ReplyDelete1. Giants are around .500 all year but by the deadline are too far out to make a run at it and they trade Cain to a contender getting prospects in return but not making the playoffs yet again.
2. Giants are in it all the way and therefore don't trade Cain as they need him for the stretch run and despite their efforts fall short of the playoffs and don't trade Cain in time losing him and getting a sweet supplemental draft pick in return.
3. Giants win the West and Cain helps us get into the playoffs. They don't trade him but we have a shot at another WS.
Of these 3 scenarios, I am rooting for scenario 1 because it is the only scenario in which the Giants get anything in return for Cain. It would also mean that the Giants strategy this offseason was a failure because lets face it, this pitching is built to win now and if the offense doesn't give them the runs they need the blame needs to fall on management who was well aware of the offensive inadequacies and did very little to address them. The truth is that all 3 of these strategies represent failure because we either don't make the playoffs and get something for Cain, don't make the playoffs and don't get anything for Cain, or make the playoffs but don't get anything for Cain. Getting nothing for Cain and/or not making the playoffs = fail. There is no strategy that makes any sense that says keeping him and losing him after this year is a good thing.
I can't root for failure. I understand your point though. If they are competing they will also burn off some of the farm to bolster as well... Sabean's only prospect trades that I can think of were vet dumps (Durham for Ford, Morris for Rajah Davis) - going back further he got Merkin for Russ Ortiz. But its just not in the gameplan of ownership to dump. And I think Sabean has done a good job overall with some hickups here and there coping with that. Overall the Giants have a very competitive record.
DeleteYeah, I think it's a very unlikely scenario that the Giants are so far out at the trade deadline that even they don't think they have a chance, so might as well root for them to go all the way one more time with Matty and Timmy. If that were to happen, I don't see how anyone could accuse them of wasting their window of opportunity.
DeleteI agree that they will be in the hunt but then scenario 2 could also occur which would be disastrous!! I also think you contradict yourself a little Dr. B as we have been discussing this team over the last few months and your common theme and support for Sabes has been firmly based on the future. If Cain is gone after this year even with another WS win, the future will suffer immensely. Also, your defense of Sabes and how he is building this team for the future only holds water if the pitching stays the same. None of the prospects that come up are going to turn this team into the Rangers and without the pitching, there will need to be a new plan and I'm not sure there is one that will keep this team from spiraling into the toilet. I don't see any FA out there after this year that can come close to filling Cain's shoes who don't cost just as much as Cain. No pitching prospects ready to step up in the next 2-3 years and pitch 200 innings with a sub 3.00 ERA. No magic beans to magically grow another ace pitcher. What direction does this team go other then down if we lose Cain without at least getting solid pieces in return?
DeleteNo, I am not contradicting myself. The future does not depend on any one of two players and that's what you and a lot of other fans are getting yourselves all in a panic about. The future depends on 1. A strong scouting staff to identify good prospects to draft and sign. 2. A strong farm system to develop those prospects and bring them to the majors. 3. A solid financial foundation that prevents the need to decimate the roster periodically a la BIlly Beane and the A's. Also to prevent being boxed into "windows of opportunity." Every season is a "window of opportunity" and the "window of opportunity goes on forever." It's the old Branch Rickey/Dodgers model of team maintenance. The idea that the future is dependent on signing any one single player is exactly the opposiite of what I'm all about and what the Giants SHOULD be all about.
DeleteWell then you will forever be satisfied with mediocrity because winning teams don't do what you are preaching. Billy Beane will always be playing for a championship in 3-4 years while teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox go out and win this year. If you have convinced yourself that this team can be competitive without Cain in the next year or two or three then you are unrealistic. It is OK to be positive and optimistic but when it becomes ridiculously over the top you have lost me. The future that you laid out depends on dominant pitching to argue anything else is rediculous. Do you really think Joe Panik is going to bat 3rd and hit 30 jacks with 100 rbi's? Is Gary Brown the next Rickey Henderson? Is Ricky Oropesa the next Mark Texeira? If you are counting on any of these things then I have some great investment opportunities for you and all I need is your credit card number! Let's put this thing to bed once and for all, no Cain means another dark age of Giants baseball.
DeleteNo, I don't think Panik is going to hit 30 jacks and get 100 RBI's, don't set up straw men and then accuse me of defending them! I do think that Panik and Brown are very likely to be well above average 2B and CF respectively for most of the 6 years they will be under team control. I do think there is a somewhat less likely probability, but still a probably that Brandon Belt WILL hit 30+ HR's with >100 RBI's. Ditto Pablo Sandoval over the next 3 years. Those are positions you don't have to break the bank to fill.
DeleteI'm sorry, but Matt Cain is not all that stands between the Giants and oblivion over the next 6 years and if it is, then you might as well kiss it goodbye anyway!
The last Yankees dynasty as the result of a relatively inexpensive homegrown core of players. When those guys got expensive, they extended them at a premium price and added a lot more expensive talent. The result was 1, that's right, 1 championship in the ensuing 10 years.
Boston absolutely broke the bank for 3 years running to try to put together another championship team and it all ended up in a steaming pile of wreckage that their GM fled from last year.
Sustained success is dependent on a steady stream of homegrown talent, not on breaking the bank on any one single player or 2 players or even 3 or 4 players.
I am not talking about what Billy Beane is doing in Oakland either. That's another straw man you constructed there! Billy Beane trades guys who still have 3-4 years of cost control so he can rebuild a farm system he has decimated through terrible scouting and drafting. I'm talking about maintaining a ever-replenishing core of cost-controlled talent found and developed by top notch scouts and coaches that contribute at the MLB level for at least 6-7 years supplemented by affordable veteran talent to fill the holes.
Yeah, you might keep some of them longer if you can get a reasonable deal, but if they are holding out for what they think Magic Johnson will give them in free agency, well, the Giants can't control what Magic Johnson does. They can only control what they do. They should not negotiate out of fear of what Magic Johnson is going to do. Magic Johnson will find out that baseball isn't like basketball where all you need is 1 great player and you have a dynasty.
I'm leaning with Pato on this Doc. Sure there are limits to what you can pay a player to stay, but don't put a straw man argument in that court either, Pato wasn't saying sign him to 7/161 stat! There is a fine line, and the Giants ownership isn't near it right now, there are stronger hints of them being cheap than actually aggressively moving to secure their longest tenured player and star pitcher. Yes, there is cat and mouse in negotiations. The Giants have a blank slate starting in 2014 right now, not a single contract on the books. You take Cain out of the middle of the core right now, it leaves a huge hole.
DeleteDespite my giving Sabean a comeback chance, I just don't see him filling in with "Cain money" anything of value. First off, the premium talent is off the market. Teams identify and lock up early. Second, if it is on the market, it is more expensive than Matt Cain. So we are back to second division free agents and compromises. Here is where it gets dicey. I agree with your points to success, and I feel the Giants have been moving in that direction. However, they have a long history of PR aided moves. They let Cain walk, the fan displeasure is going to be huge. Huge. Its a powder keg. In this scenario, they will panic, and go after a 2nd tier free agent to plug the gap. That will be the wrong move.
I've been throwing out Seaver as a comparison to Cain, its not a great comparison because he was traded. How about Mike Mussina? 3 years older than Cain when he signed with those Yankee teams you referenced. He contributed into his late 30s. We have a guy who is better than that and younger than that! All the RDF has to do is spend a little. If the Giants don't eventually offer up 120MM they are being cheap and they deserve all the scorn they will get. Don't believe me on the scorn? A small preview is available on Larry Baer's chat on sfgiants today - check the sflive twitter feed. While I wish fans were more polite, I agree with the general sentiment. And that is the tip of the iceberg on the powder keg.
We earlier discussed Beltran as a guy who might be a bridge to our talent coming up in the minors. Well, it didn't happen. We sat on our hands patiently, Sabean promised they were saving for pitching. Well, its time for them to put their money where their mouth is. Cain is an essential part to the bridge to the minor league development going on. He's one of the most popular Gints, he's a horse, he's the defacto captain, he's taken 2 hometown discounts. The only out for them not signing him is if he's asking for a 150MM contract. And from most indications I've seen that's not what's on the table.
Look guys, I love Matt Cain a much as anybody. I really hope the Giants re-sign him. I actually think they will re-sign him. I don't think they should do it at any price and I don't think it's the end of the world if they don't re-sign him.
DeleteCain currently has pitched 1317 innings in his career, approximately #840 on the all time list. By the end of this year, he'll but up to about 1530, assuming he stays healthy all year, which would move him up to about #690. In order to average 4 WAR over the next 6 years of your proposed 6/120 contract, which is the level he would have to perform to play up to it's value, he would have to average >200 IP over his those 6 years. Let's just say he adds another 1300 innings which is what he's done over the last 6 years. That gets him to 2830. That's #150 on the all time list. 150 pitchers in the entire history of baseball have pitched more than 2830 innings in their career, most of them from an era when 350 IP/season was not unusual.
There are currently just 45 active pitchers with more than Cain's current 1317 IP for his career, most of them well past the peak years of their careers. There are currently just 3 active pitchers with more than 2830 IP for their careers.
Yeah, Cain is a unique pitcher in a lot of ways. He may put up 4 WAR seasons every year for 10-12 more seasons. The odds are against him doing it for even 6 more, though.
Jon Smoltz is a B/R comparison to Cain. Sustained an injury (age 33), went to the pen for 4 years, went back to starting. He had 1355 Innings by age 27. I guess with the injury it is worth mentioning Steve Avery. My point has always been you need to examine the risk because its there, but if you assume its nothing but downside you might miss out on something huge. Another Cain comp is Nolan Ryan.
DeleteThere are numerous examples of pitchers getting to age 33 just fine. Even Pedro managed that. Curt Schilling. Randy Johnson. Maddux.
The Giants are in a perfect storm here, he's young enough they need to roll the dice. I know you love Cain and you're just being pragmatic, but baseball is a star's game, and Cain's stats are actually on an uptick currently as opposed to Timmy's. You need aces to go deep in the postseason. Three might be a luxury, but we need 2.
Let me put it this way: would you prefer Cain locked up or the Giants panicking not only on some B-team free agents but throwing mad mad money at Timmy? Because that's the other side of the equation. They realize their mistake a year later, and then go 8/180 on Timmy? I can squint and see that happen.
My point is that Cain's arm already has a lot of miles on it. Yes, he's still young, but his arm isn't. We know that the miles have already taken a toll on the elbow. Yes, he could keep cranking out 200 inning seasons until he's 40, but that's a lot less likely than a wheel coming off well before age 33.
DeleteWhile Cain would be a big loss if not extended, I just can't see it as an excuse for the Giants not to field a competitive team in 2013.. They would still have Timmy and Madbum in the rotation, it is still Sabean's job to juggle the roster and fill the holes via free agency or trades to field a competitive roster for 2013.. He is the longest tenured GM in the majors and I've read an article with a view from an opposing scout that Sabean and Tidrow are smart and know what they are doing.. Sorry, if Cain is not signed I expect Sabean to continue to do his job.. Maybe I'm expecting too much? The Giants traded Russ Ortiz and Livan Hernandez after their 2002 Pennent winning season, and went on to win 100 games in 2003..
ReplyDeleteI would also add two more factors that help an organization sustain success besides farm system.. 1-Good talent evaluation. Good teams know how to evaluate baseball talent which leads to good trades in the major league level and knowing which minor leaguers to keep or trade away.. We'll see how the Angel Pagan and Melky trades work out.
2-A plan for the future-what kind of team do they want to build, this is most important. The Giants built their 2010 WS team with steller pitching and timely power hitting from guys like Posey, Uribe, Ross, Burrell, Huff, Torres.. I folowed too many losing Giants teams from way back where the GM made trades but the team seemed like it had no direction or plan..
LG
LG - which article? I love to read about Tidrow.
DeleteCain is young enough I think its a no-brainer risk you take. In terms of finding somebody to develop, the current pipeline the Giants have going and where the other pieces are for us, it would leave a gigantic hole for the next 3 years, and has the added problem of a domino effect - the team either throws crazy money at Lincecum the next year who will be more expensive, older and more of a perceived injury risk due to his frame as well as his declining peripherals or Timmy walks and then its MadBum and Surkamp. That is starting over.
But its also about fan confidence. Home grown player, ownership raking in cash, a blank slate in 2014. if they don't spend money on Cain, what are they going to spend money on? Kamakami has a good column about this.
If we were looking on the free agent market, wouldn't we want a guy who is 27 with good ratios and durability? This just seems like a slam dunk to me. This isn't like letting 33 year old Jason Schmidt walk. You let a guy who is 27 walk (unless he's asking for 150MM then I understand) and you might as well start over. Which is Pato's trade scenario. Which I don't see the Giants ever contemplating based on their history.
Just to be clear, I think this is out of Sabean's hands and I've been generally pleased with his moves the past few years with a couple exceptions. I'm very upset with ownership for mucking around with this instead of being bold and decisive.
Of course, a 27 yo guy with a track record like Cain is someone you are always going to be trying to acquire. The question is, at what price? You've put down 6 yrs/$120 as the price you are willing to pay. I'm not so sure 6/120 is such a great price. At 6/120, you are betting that he can maintain a 4 WAR/season pace for 6 more years. Yes, it's doable, but you can count the number of currently active pitchers who have put up the career numbers he would end up with by then on one hand and still have fingers left over.
DeleteI'm pretty sure the Giants fully understand what Matt Cain means to their team, both physically and psychologically. If they don't end up extending him, I have to believe it won't be because they didn't want to or were being "cheap." It will be because Matt Cain ultimately decided he WANTS to be a free agent and the only thing he will accept is full free agency value a year early. If the Giants determine that meeting that price is not in the long term best interest of the team, I'm ready to accept that. It's not the end of the world, maybe the world as we know it, but not the world.
DeleteI think you are falling into the Saber trap on this one instead of looking at the open market GMs are facing for frontline pitchers. There just aren't enough guys who do what Cain does. I consider 6/120 a healthy premium over Cain's floor, but I love the possible ceiling, and I also think the Giants ownership has plenty of assets to handle something like this. Throw in the youth, etc and its an easy decision in my mind. While there aren't a lot of current pitchers with those number of innings there were a bunch that I listed who have retired in the past 5 years. These things go in cycles. Sure he can blow up at any time. If the arm falls off at 32-33, at least the Giants got 4 years. Both you and OGC have been emphasizing his injury risk and the toll on the elbow. Most pitchers have issues from time to time, just look at Doc H's velocity this spring (and he's one of those you could count with high innings).
DeleteIts not a great price. The Giants already got their bargain. Now they need to pay full boat. Frankly, the fact they haven't seen most of this storm coming really makes me question their long term planning. If I'm in charge its the first thing to take care of, because its the most important move of the offseason. Just to use your Yankee terms from up above, they stayed competitive by locking up their core. Mo, Posada, Jeeter, Bernie Williams. The Giants luck (well, their design) pushes it towards starting pitching. I think they are getting there, but they don't have a pitching factory yet. And the other obvious comparison is the Braves of the 90s. Gotta lock him up. Just have to. 6/120 could very well be a huge bargain all things considered.
Sorry didn't see your part about Cain wanting to be a free agent. I've always acknowledged that possibility. In this case, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have a couple sources that I trust. I am much more inclined to buy the cheap argument than the Cain wants to leave one at this point. One of the things I actively dislike about the ownership group is their PR obsession. I'm not pulling this out of the hat. Baggs information is supplementing information that I already have, however second hand and unsubstantiated it is. I have two sources, one is inside the Giants and the other is connected with one of the minority owners. I trust them. So we'll see what happens. I don't mean to constantly argue with you Doc, but I do think with a franchise cornerstone, fan favorite and premier pitcher its worth some discussion. Cheers.
DeleteI just see a disconnect between the notion that the Giants are PR obssessed and not extending Matt Cain when not extending him is an almost certain PR disaster. Seeing as how it will be a PR disaster, and is already close to it, I have to believe that if they don't re-sign him it's either because he wants to go to free agency or else he is making demands that the Giants genuinely feel they cannot meet without hurting the overall ballclub.
DeleteIt is a contradiction. Let me elaborate with a third option you are ignoring: the Giants started with a low-ball offer and are inching towards market price. It may be more than they want to spend, and to that I offer the following explanation: they are cheap. The seats are already sold for the year. I will give them the benefit of the doubt on some things, but I'm not going to do it here. To ignore that scenario of inching up their offer is sticking your head in the sand to every beat reporter story in the past 3 months. And this is of their own devising as well as Sabean's statements on saving for the pitchers. To not deliver...
DeleteMaking it a black and white of Cain either wanted free agency or the Giants are wise to avoid risk avoids everything in the middle. That's where the game is. They thought they could get him for comparable contracts like the Angels got, and that didn't turn out to be the case. Now they are facing some serious trouble. They are very PR obsessed. But they also are not the most astute on the topic of baseball operations, the lads cutting the checks. Now they have a riled up fan base and are backpeddling saying "we are not cheap" AND have the Dodgers breathing down their throats.
I'm mad enough to dust my lunatic fringe card off on this one. Seriously. I saw below you stated we will never know the truth about how much was offered, what not. I disagree pretty strongly with that one. This is important enough it will come out.
To end positive, I agree a post on Cain would attract a lot of rage/vitriol/what not. But let me ask you this, I'm a positive loyal fan. Why do you think I'm so mad about this DrB?
Sorry, I looked in several places but can't find the article. The scout was asked a question about the Giants cutting down to their 25 man roster, and his reply was don't worry Sabean and Tidrow know what they're doing.. I want them to sign Cain too.. Kawakami's article was good.. I'm in a wait and see mode till opening day.. Both sides are reportidly in negotiations which is good.. Nobody knows what Cain's true thinking is on this, he has said that free agency sounds exciting to him.. For those upset with ownership, its possible that Cain might not want to re-sign an extension but would rather test free agency. Thats Cains right and the Giants won't be able to do anything about it.. Similar talks going on with Cole Hamels and Phils, might be worth following.. My feeling is the extension will get done for both Hamels and Cain.
ReplyDeleteLG
Don't worry, LG, I believe you. I may not have seen the exact article you are referring to, but I've read enough comments in enough places that Sabes and Tidrow know what they are doing, I'm very sure it's out there.
DeleteNo worries LG. Its good to be cool about it and wait and see. I am a bit fed up with the management/ownership side of operations though. I've stated that if Cain is seeking a 150MM contract that changes the game. The hints of them being upset about the no brainer cut of Rowand plus running out Zito plus the Belt hijinx plus my gut feeling they ARE lowballing Cain just makes me a bit ornery.
DeleteI honestly think these are all ligitimate concerns. Not signing Cain isn't the end of the world but not getting anything in return for him is like your car stalling on the train tracks and you watching the train approach and not getting out to avoid getting crushed! Sure there isn't anything you can do about the car but you don't have to go down with it! All of my criticisms about Sabes are consistent and target his weaknesses which in this instance are his abilities to recognize that the train is coming and there isn't much else he can do other then get out of the car and at least get a few prospects back in return. I think every Giants fan will understand if this happens and will even side with management in this situation becuase they will realize that Cain had his chance to resign and the efforts were made but once the realization that he wasn't going to sign was clear, they at least got what they could for him.
DeleteI also like to think of this team in the long term as well and therefore I am OK with not making the playoffs this season if it stregthens the team in the long run. Losing Cain with no compensation doesn't strengthen the team in the long run. Signing him or trading him would accomplish these goals.
Sustainable winning is one of your big arguments Dr. B and in my eyes that means making more then one playoff in the last 4 years that we had a chance and if they don't make it this year would be 5 years. Without Cain or prospects for him, I don't see this team being competitive enough to sustainably win over the next 3-4 years. Shankbone breaks down the factors involved very nicely, teams don't let talent go unless it doesn't make sense like Pujols last year. All young pitchers get locked up and anything that comes on the market is overpriced so why not overpay for a homegrown talent then take a chance on another guy from outside the organization?
With the money from Zito coming off the books in 2014 and essentially no long term contracts at all at that point, I don't buy it if the team cries poor. As Shankbone eluded to as well, we will run into this problem next year with Timmy again and if they screw this up with Cain then how can you have any confidence they will handle Timmy any better? I also think Timmy wants to become a free agent more then Cain does so it will be even harder to lock him up then it will be to lock Cain up right now. This is the domino affect I mentioned in another post, no Cain could equal no Timmy after next year which takes what used to be our greatest strength in SP and makes it a liability. Dr. B, you post articles so frequently that it is hard to continue this argument so would it be possible for you to write an article dedicated to your views on the Cain situation and break it down so that Shankbone and I can provide our rebuttles? This is one of those topics that is really hard to discuss through posts, how about we meet at a Giants game in a few weeks and discuss it in person?
I have thought about posting a separate article about Cain, but have not because 1. It seems rather pointless since we have no real knowledge or control over the negotiations anyway and 2. It would invite a firestorm of comment, since it appears to me it would be a rather unpopular opinion.
DeleteIf Cain does not sign, we will never know the true reason why because we will never know how much the he demanded or how much the Giants offered. For this reason, even if Cain's demands are completely unreasonable, the Giants will be vilified by those who assume they are being cheapskates and vice versa.
They can still trade him before he walks. I think management would actually look good if they were able to pull off a trade and get decent prospects in return. The last comment I read said that Cain was asked that if all things being equal would he prefer to stay and he was indifferent. I think his ship has sailed and he needs to be traded before the deadline. The problem will be that Sabes won't want to trade him because he knows that will lower the chances of making the playoffs this year but either way, next year we will be without Cain. If you are a glass half full type of guy I still think you have to see the writing on the wall here. Even if his agent trained him and told him all the right things to say every time he has been asked about his contract, did he really convince him to also sell his house?
DeleteShould the Cardinals have traded Albert Pujols at the deadline last year?
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