#6 Kyle Crick, RHP. 6'4", 220 lbs. BD: 11/30/1992.
Rookie AZL: 1-0, 6.43, 7 IP, 8 BB, 8 K's.
In a banner year for HS RHP's in the draft, Kyle Crick kind of got lost in the shuffle a bit. The Giants didn't lose track of him though and grabbed him in the supplemental first round. A big, strong kid, he fits perfectly into the mold of Matt Cain and Zack Wheeler, 2 HS RHP's who preceded him as first round Giants draftees. He also fits the mold of RHP's from the state of Texas.
Crick was a first baseman until after his junior year in high school. He decided he should think about pitching when he regularly hit 94 MPH on the showcase circuit. He was able to dial it up to 97 during his senior year. He already has a bit of a slider and a curveball that has a nice downward drop. He is also working on a changeup and splitter. There are a few scouting videos available on the internet. I suggest you look them up. His leg kick is reminiscent of Cains. I don't think he rocks back quite a far. He's got a quick power delivery with moderate effort and some recoil at the end. He's reportedly still learning to get everything moving toward the plate.
He appeared in 7 games starting July 20 in Rookie ball with inconsistent results in only 7 IP. He will start the 2012 campaign with instructional league under his belt. If he follows the typical path of Giants high round HS draft picks, he will play next season for Augusta in Low A ball. He did have a fairly high walk rate in HS.
Here are some things said about him that I was able to find around the internet:
Baggs in his BA scouting report: "....has every bit as much projection as Matt Cain did nearly a decade ago." "Crick is the best power arm in a system that usually knows what to do with them. He has the ceiling of a #2 starter."
John Klima: "Kyle Crick is going to go good if I know anything. Not sure how you would find something not to like in this look."
This was a very deep draft. After reading up on Crick and looking at his scouting videos, I think the Giants got a better prospect than any of the guys who were bandied about as potential first round picks, Dillon Howard, Robert Stephenson, Jose Fernandez or Joe Ross who were all drafted before the Giants turn at #29. I'm not sure how you would separate him talentwise from Matt Cain and Zack Wheeler at the same stage of their careers.
Rather than saying the Giants system must be weak if Gary Brown and Joe Panik are the top 2 prospects, I'm going to say it must be pretty strong if a talent like Kyle Crick is sitting at #6 or in BA's case, #8.
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I've seen some arguing back and forth whether it was a Tidrow or Barr draft last year. I think Tidrow won out for the most part, especially the run of 97MPH topping guys. Maybe the guys they got gave them just enough confidence to let go of Wheeler, he isn't going to be jetting to the majors the way Cain/MadBum did, he'll be on almost the same track as this years draftees if things go well for them.
ReplyDeleteThe G's also got the under the radar OK prep guy with Blackburn, while the more hyped guys went in the top 10. I'm pretty psyched to have Crick, and if they can pair him up with a couple more arms this coming year in addition to Mejia/Flores and eventually Mercedes, that's pretty exciting stuff. Any big right hander from the south will have the Cain label instantly from Gint fans. Pretty nice legacy for Cainer. We'll have to wait on young Kyle's Xfip to see what's what, but a nice fresh power arm is sweet.
I have a lot of sympathy for Sickels - the site is underwater with negative stuff and petty saber arguments. I think you were picking up on the negative comments DrB. This morning looking at the conversation, its way worse, I am thinking about arguing a bit more but I might just have to call it a day. I touched off some Sabean stuff with a simple comment. Its like opening pandora's box. Giants fans are all amped to get into Sabean rants any chance they get. I think you did yourself a favor losing your sportsnation password.
DrB,
ReplyDeleteGreat job so far. I am pretty excited to see how Crick does this year. It is good to hear that people project him as a #2. If Lincecum and/or Cain get extended, this should take a lot of pressure off of him because he would only need to pitch like a #3 or #4. I am hoping Cain gets locked up before Spring Training so that the contract negotiations don't ruin his focus. It would be nice to have him happy and ready to go at least by opening day. Lincecum will most likely not get locked this year. I am thinking he will probably get a 1 or 2 year deal. I am optimistic that if we are doing well in the summer that they will want to talk extension. It is clear that pitching moves this team and without Lincecum, even though we would get a huge haul, and it is better to have homegrown talent in your core. I am crossing my finger that he gets a 1 year contract for 2012 and a 5 year extension that he can live with. 5/118M sounds about right to me.
I am also excited to see if any of our LHP's progress this year. Mejia should be fun to watch. Besides Surkamp, we do not have any LHP that could be called up if Bumgarner was to get hurt. This is a huge problem. Zito is not our savior. Hopefully we can find a few veterans to come to Spring Training that could possibly make an impact if there are any injuries.
Yes, great job DrB. As usual.
ReplyDeleteI'm excited to see more of Crick as well. As long as the Giants have at least two of Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Crick should make a great #3 if he develops as hoped.
I'm still confused that some draft evaluators would have been happy if the Giants had selected Crick with their first round draft pick and then picked up Panik with the supplemental, instead of the way it worked out. Either way, you can't go back in time and change things, so the Giants have Crick and Panik, so why downgrade their draft because of their order, why not just focus on what is?
My understanding is that DrB didn't lose his password, it just stopped working. The reason I remember that is because one day my password stopped working too and I sent a bunch of e-mails to MCC's customer support e-mail to get it fixed, but never got anywhere. And I know I had the right password and I typed it in very carefully a number of times (remember, OCD :^). I finally gave up, signed up for a new ID with my name followed by my handle back then, and it was fine after that.
Now, after MCC took my URL out of their list when I challenged them to credit Sabean (then he put it back when people called him on it), I wonder if that first one was intentional.
I like Roger's scenario for how the extensions might play out. I still think that Cain will happen, it is just a matter of finding that middle ground. It is not a sure thing, for sure, but for every negative that many bring up, without knowing him (wants max money as free agent; hates lack of offense), there are positives regarding his actual behavior that suggests that he will sign (Giants are his team because he didn't grow up following a team; bought home here; married someone local; child born here; never was about the money when signing for draft bonus, his first long-term deal, or his first extension). For me, it will be nerve racking until he actually signs, but like the extensions for Sabean in prior years, I feel good that it will happen.
Lincecum, I don't share that feeling. He has always been about the money. Despite not really pitching that well as a sophomore, he held out for about half million more (wanted $1M even), which the Indians didn't give him, he held out for $200K more than slot, he waited until last second before negotiating deal for two years at last arbitration. So the big question for me is what does he and his advisers think he is worth?
I guess we will find out more when we get his asked for salary, I don't expect any movement until the two sides release their numbers.
Tidrow vs. Barr: I have to say Barr. Panik picked first, followed by Crick, then Susac and Oropesa, that has been the pattern, a bunch of good looking position prospects with the first 3-4 round picks, then a focus on pitching.
ReplyDeleteQuiet day. I saw some interesting video on sfgiants.com - encourage people to check out Raggs talking about Vogelsong in particular, and there is a Sabey Sabes interview where he lays out a tad bit of his stradagems. They're under the "inside the clubhouse" moniker in the video section.
ReplyDeleteSo OGC, Tidrow vs. Barr. I think this is an interesting little thing the G's have going on. First off, any ideas on who brought in Barr? PeteyM? Sabean? Somebody else? I'm curious about the history and would love to hear opinions.
We have 4 drafts to look at with Barr on board. Obviously they're huge affairs, concentrate on maybe the top third of the draft for emphasis?
2011: 1-16 (Blackburn at 16) they drafted 9 pitchers (signing 7 of them) to go with 8 hitters. Susak and Oropresa were highly rated and dropped to us. Panik was rated, but not as highly as drafted. So they got 3 top 100 players to go with Crick and Osich. I could see your point, Barr gets his college hitters, then they let Tidrow take a big swing at those 97 MPH guys. In addition, we are currently high on pick 19 Cody Hall and pick 35 Shawn Payne. (And I have my little sleeper lefty Snodgrass at 27) MLB draft guide did write ups on Crick, Osich, Ricky O, Panik and Susak. He also did a write up on Garrett Buechele, who I'd say is another sleeper at 14.
So 2011 goes to Barr, based on even numbers for first third of the draft and the high players picked. Counterarguments are encouraged.
2010: 1-16 (Austin Fleet at 16) 9 players, 7 pitchers. Brown, Parker, Jurica the first 3 selected, this is pretty easily identified as a Barr draft. The arms of Hembree, Kickham and Harrold are pretty interesting as well, so good for you Tidrow. Its worth noting the sleepers such as DrB's Brett Krill in the 25, Melonhead Jr at 20. DrB is not as high on 11th round pick Adam Duvall as a lot of Giants fans.
2009: 1-16 (Ryan Cavan at 16) 8 players, 8 pitchers. Wheeler is gone, Stoffel at 4 is gone. Belt at 5 is looking good, jury out on Joseph and Chris D 2/3. Sleepers include Alex Burg at 24 and Jake Dunning at 33. I'd say this is pretty much a Barr draft as well, but they did go pitcher at the top.
2008: 1-16 (CJ Ziegler at 16) 8 players, 8 pitchers, but this followed the 2011 pattern closely. Buster, Conor G, Kieschnick and Crawford, followed by a 8 man run of pitchers. Have to call it a Barr draft.
Only 1 pitcher selected in the first round in 4 years. Will that change? If you cut to the top 5 picks of each year, the Giants have selected 13 hitters and 7 pitchers. 3 to 2 ratio the past 3 years. Will they have to swing back the other way to build pitching depth? It has definitely changed the nature of the Giants farm system, in a very good way.
Shankbone,
ReplyDeleteThere is one philosophy of using the draft based on the needs of the organization. I subscribe to the philosophy of picking the best on the board. Although a starting pitcher or power hitting outfielder are our main needs, if a player drops to us that is by far the best on the board, then you should pick thdm. I think we all would agree that Posey is our catcher of the future and may switch to 1B to avoid injury. With that said, if the best player on the board in round 1 of the 2012 draft is a catcher, would you pick him? Most people say you should. I think in the later rounds is where you look to fill needs. If we have a great player but do not have room for them they would just become a great trade chip later. So, I don't know if there is such thing as a Barr or Tidrow draft. They may just be looking at the best available. Who really knows what goes on in the war room? I like your take on it and the research you did.
Roger - good points. I've always liked to dip back into the history of the draft - its harsh for the Giants frequently - but also I want to know more about why the Giants are finally drafting players who don't suck. Its a huge oversimplification to say Tidrow or Barr draft, but there has to be something to Barr coming on board. Should we take, say Stryker Trahan or Alex Bergman if they are there? I think I'd die laughing if they did that, but in a way that makes sense, the BPA. I think there is a lot more balance in the war room now, for sure. Tidrow and Sabean were very comfortable with scoping out arms, but they can still do that with this new strategy, at a lower overall risk.
ReplyDeleteI really look at getting Timmy in 2006 as saving Sabean's job, and it was his call. Obviously we had to rebuild at this point, but isn't it sort of funny after rejecting the picks the first real commitment to a honest to god blue chip makes for a 2 time Cy Young already? It helps to have ownership finally commit the money to the draft in the form of signing bonuses, etc, but I am still not convinced about who's idea it was to punt picks in 2004-5 with the early FA signings. To me that's so penny wise pound foolish I still get angry and then rage at poor Michael Tucker. OGC will be along to argue with me I'm sure, but if you can't commit to rebuilding your farm when it was pretty obvious the Bonds era was cashing out...
Maybe after 2007, the MadBum draft when we had the whole shebang of picks, they immediately realized they didn't have enough of an eye for hitters, and went out and got Barr. Maybe it was already in the works. We turned Alderson into Franchez, great, but the other guys are looking pretty weak right now, although Culberson might still turn out. And look at the nice arms at the back who've been traded, used and squandered: Turpen, Runzler, Paterson and Edlefson (still not on DrB's top 50 even though he's been to the show!)
I put down on sickels site that this is the best I remember the Giants system. Maybe that's an oversimplification, but for so many years of not developing hitters, having pitchers bust on us, its pretty refreshing to know we've got a different philosophy, even if the Brain Trust won't tell us exactly what it is. Savvy Sabes rubs his beard and pities the fool.
Oh, and my worse fear of the offseason, one Covelli Crisp, is off the market. The deal will pay Crisp $6MM in 2012 and $7MM in 2013. The A's can exercise a $7.5MM option for 2014 or pay the center fielder a $1MM buyout.
ReplyDeleteBeaned!
Thanks for the great research, Shankbone.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I would have pointed out is what Roger did, that the first early guaranteed picks are usually BPA picks, so you can't really count that in your stats. So I would take out Posey and Wheeler. Don't change your conclusion, though, nice job.
Good question about Barr. I had wondered about that myself but never sat down to think about it.
One thing I would throw out there is if that maybe was quid pro quo for the Doyers taking Colletti. I would not put this high up there as a reason, but maybe.
A bigger reason I can see is more complicated. I read that the Giants were not happy that Colletti ended up in LaLa land and sharing our secrets there. If you have been following prospects for a while, you would know that Logan White is the guru who has been finding gold under the rocks for the Doyers, but as we know today, Barr was the brains behind some of the picks that LA had done, like Russell Martin and Jonathan Broxton. He also helped out the Orioles for some good picks in Mussina and Ben McDonald.
According to his bio, he was East Coast scouting coordinator for LA, so maybe the Giants offered up responsibility for all amateur and international scouting to Barr, a promotion, and stole him away, as a retaliatory move for them taking away Colletti. It was not like he was under a rock, he was LA's east coast director for 10 years, so why then if not as retaliation, as well as improvement.
I doubt that they would have made the move just to retaliate, but I would think that they paid greater attention to their staff because of the Colletti move, and decided that Barr would be a nice addition as well as a retaliatory move.
And remember, Peter Magowan was still the managing owner back then, as we saw with the leak about Dusty Baker's tax situation, Magowan is good with the retaliatory moves.
Either way, I like the "trade". Barr is now 54 YO, and I never see his name in GM talks, so this could be his last job he takes, though he could grab Player Personnel director title somewhere else, if he really wants to or is offered it.
Looking at his background, he definitely was on the GM career track early in his career, but then he worked 10 years as East Coast scouting director for the Doyers, which to me means that he found what he thought was his niche and didn't need to pursue the GM title or a promotion, though obviously he wouldn't turn it down either. Because that covers ages 39-49, key years to push for a GM job, yet he stayed as East Coast scouting supervisor the whole time.
Also, maybe he enjoys being part of the Gang of Sabean greybeards, as Shankbone has been describing in posts I've seen here and there. The late Pat Dobson was very devoted to Sabean, and I have to say that Tidrow must be too, I've wondered why he never got the GM call (of course, part of that might have been that the Giants were his childhood team). Another who has bonded tightly with Sabean is Bochy, from what I read in Baggerly's book, Band of MiSFits. Maybe Barr has found his niche and final job.
Shankbone,
ReplyDeleteI am glad we did not pay Coco that kind of money. He is getting up there in age and he abuses his body out there every game. Sounds like an injury risk to me.
Peter the Pink weaves himself in and out of the narrative for sure. The Dusty Baker leaving situation, the Jeff Kent leaving situation, the Zito/Rowand deals. Smart asses like myself will make jokes about blaming McGowan for everything up to and including the Grassy Knoll in Dallas. But he is a pretty big part of the narrative with Sabey Sabes. I'm not convinced about Warrior Spirit but its quite obvious that at least the Zito contract caused him huge damage. He was obviously pretty hands on, and he has a nasty streak. Look at his little rear guard action against Selig and the A's right now, for example.
ReplyDeleteColetti rolled in 06. We waited a year and a half to exact our revenge? I could see that actually, I'm not being skeptical.
It is a good trade. I really like Barr. I love Raggs. I like Tidrow. There are a lot of folks that are pretty good org guys on the Gints. Which makes me crack up at the rage at the guy at the top. Did you catch his explanation on that inside the clubhouse? Pretty standard Sabean, but as I like the strategy this offseason I kind of liked it myself.
I will let Tucker and the punted picks lie, I've had my say, you know what I think.
ReplyDeleteI still like Noonan and still have hopes for him. One of the tenets of Ron Shandler's is that once a player displays a talent, he owns it, but then it becomes the goal of him producing it on a daily basis at higher levels. Noonan had an excellent second half in 2009, where he walked a lot, didn't strike out much, and hit for high OPS at a young age relative to the league, and he's still only 23 YO.
I wonder if hitting in a pitcher's league like the Eastern League (even without Norwich as home, the league is pitching oriented, at least before) caused him to develop some bad habits or crush his confidence.
Still, 23 YO is not that old for AA (remember, Chase Utley didn't make the majors full-time until he was 26 or 27, from what I recall), so there is still a chance that Noonan could figure it out. But I wonder if he needs to be in Fresno to reach his potential. He did play there for a few games, but he did OK there, four walks vs. only 2 strikeouts in 37 AB.
Say, did he have a bad leg injury in 2009? He stole a lot of bases his first two seasons with the Giants, but has been a sloth since then in terms of stolen bases, and he wasn't that bad in terms of success percentage either, he was actually pretty good. And his BABIP went from a good .330's to under .300, which is average or perhaps poor, relative to the league.
That Coco Crisp deal makes the deals for Pagan and Cabrera look terrific by comparison. OK, which GM is more creative here anyway? 2 OF's who are each at least as good as Crisp for a total of about $9 M for 1 year vs $14+ M for just Crisp? I'd say old Sabes comes out smelling like a rose compared to Beane on this one.
ReplyDeleteWasn't being overly serious about the scenario I raised, was just throwing out what might make sense, so skepticism is welcome.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't totally sure about the timing, 1.5 years isn't exactly a close enough event, and checking back, Sheriff Ned was hired in Nov 2005, Barr in Oct 2007, so that is basically two years. Yeah, seems to be too long to exact revenge, but if you figure on one year to figure out who to target, and another year to woo him, maybe.
But maybe Sheriff Ned is the trigger still in another scenario: Barr figures that Ned is more a talking head, realizes Sabean has the brains, contacts Giants after 2007 season, because he's tired of the revolving door at GM in LA, or tired of Ned, or both.
I love Tidrow, myself, he's a pitching guru. Bumgarner was lost, the coaches there couldn't help him, Tidrow rides in and saves the day, mechanics problem solved, MadBum is throwing bullets again.
Not that I disagree, DrB, but it should be noted that Pagan and Cabrera costed the Giants Torres, Ramirez, and Sanchez, and I think there were throw-ins.
ReplyDeleteFound a nice blurb on Barr from http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/03/02/2010-draft-preview-san-francisco-giants/
ReplyDelete"John Barr is probably the most accomplished scouting director when you consider his age and experience levels. Only in his early-50s, Barr has as much high-level scouting experience as any scouting director in the entire game of baseball. He became the Orioles’ scouting director shortly after turning 30, and has run a combined eight drafts including the two drafts he has run since joining the Giants. Directly before joining the Giants, he was the Dodgers’ East Coast crosschecker for ten years, running possibly the best region in a club that developed a number of homegrown players. His official title with San Francisco is Special Assistant to the General Manager for Scouting, but he functions as a scouting director. He’s simply at a higher place in the food chain than some scouting directors are. That’s well deserved, and I consider Barr one of the best scouting directors in the game. Looking at his first two drafts with the Giants, the first glaring trend is a desire to nab players that have slipped a little more than expected in their draft year. That fits for Gillaspie, Kieschnick, Crawford, Joseph, and Stoffel, all names that were considered in the first round equation at one point in the 12 months before their respective drafts. That’s intriguing to me, because they wouldn’t have been even in the conversation if they weren’t immensely talented to begin with. The fact that Barr has drafted five of those players in just two years is incredible, with Matt Graham being an addition to that, as he was in the top ten conversation two years before his draft year. A second high-level trend is a tendency to lean towards power hitters, or at the least hitters with a solid future at the plate. Crawford was the notable exception, being more of a speed and defense guy, but in general Barr likes the guys that can do something with the bat. Joseph was a fairly polished prep bat, and the rest were college bats, an interesting trend in itself. Barr generally prefers getting pitchers from the collegiate level, though the high picks have been relievers. Wheeler was the first significant investment in a prep arm for Barr, and Graham comes in second. While I think this was more about opportunity, I also think that Barr and company are more willing to take prep arms than is thought by simply looking at the draft lists. All in all, he has a fairly balanced draft strategy utilizing a set plan that works well."
Found nice interview with Huff
ReplyDeletehttp://blog.sfgate.com/giants/2012/01/03/aubrey-huff-tells-me-his-body-is-ripped-and-that-pilates-will-be-a-key-to-his-2012-revival/
Was disappointed by his backpedalling about his fitness. Someone commented that maybe his new baby made him tired, lose focus
I wanted to tell all contributors how much I enjoy reading your info, opinion and links.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
OGC,
ReplyDeleteOf the players traded for Melky and Pagan, Ramirez is the only one I would chalk up as a loss, and if Hembree takes his place even he might have been addition by subtraction. The Giants were clearly disgusted with Sanchez and not going to risk arbitration with him. Torres was not worth the risk of arbitration either. Sabes had made it clear in his postseason presser that Torres was not in their future plans. So, Sabes took 2 guys who were going to be castoffs, added in a bullpen arm and a marginal prospect and came up with 2 guys who are arguably better than Coco Crisp who is costing Oakland almost twice what the two are costing the Giants.
Thanks for clarifying that DrB, sorry, was starting to come down with some sort of cold/flu, all I could really think of was what I posted, hence why I said I didn't disagree. I'm probably still a little loopy, so I probably shouldn't post much...
ReplyDeleteFYI, Ask BA listed latest draft order (still a few free agents who could net their old team picks) and the Giants are picking 20th in the first round, and then 72nd in the second round (there are 21 supplemental first round picks).
I saw that list. Last hurrah of the type b lousy player compensation. The A's, Pads and Blue Jays will pick a few extra as compensation for earth moving players such as Dejesus, Harang, Rauch and Molina. I'm glad they cleaned up the Type B manipulation. The Pads should get compensated for Bell, I'm not quite so sure about Willingham, but the Jays Type B guys, much like the Rays last year, really annoy me. Now if we had a new age GM who was into this? Well...
ReplyDeleteSo 20th pick is BPA we can assume. The CBA could shift the emphasis away from HS players who are tough signs, or push them way up the draft. In a supposedly weak college class, what does that do? We can hope that it pushes Victor Roache down to the 20 spot, but I somehow doubt it. As the talent looks right now, its sort of like the Giants farm system - no huge standouts but a lot of interesting prospects.
All I know is I would not want to be the GM holding the # 1 draft pick. I mean, is Mark Appel really worth that $7 M slot when you can pick up a Beck or Wacha for at least $5 M less farther down in the draft? If I was the GM holding that pick, I'd be looking for a player who was willing to do a pre-draft agreeement to sign well below slot and save some of those $$$ for later round picks that you could now go over slot on.
ReplyDeleteI had never seen Barr speak before, so I thought some here might enjoy it too. Here, he's talking about the selection of Gary Brown, plus discusses some other Giants prospects at that time: http://www.csnbayarea.com/sportsnetBayArea/search/v/40197816/6-7-giants-director-of-scouting-john-barr-on-chronicle-live.htm
ReplyDeleteThe transcript is pretty hilarious for how the software (I assume SW did that, it was pretty bad transcribing otherwise) mangled some of the words.
He was very modest, deflecting credit for the picks by naming a lot of people who had input, seems like a nice guy.
Wow, did not think about that DrB, that makes a lot of sense to negotiate and guarantee a lower bonus for the #1 spot, probably have to get good ideas for slots 2 to 6 as well, I would think.
ReplyDeleteSince high schoolers can't game it anymore, more, I think, will let teams know whether they are willing to sign and for how much, to get them to skip college. These numbers should be fairer as prospects know that if they slip, they might not get selected at all.
I suppose they can still game it by telling one team $1M and another team $2M, but that's also economics at work, the cost of getting him to go to a certain team.
Plus, if I understand the rules correctly, teams can still go over slot for any pick, as long as the total of all their slots is not surpassed.