There hasn't been too much talk about the Giants second base situation, but they have some uncertainty to deal with there too. The incumbent is Freddy Sanchez who played a big part in the WS championship season. He underwent surgery to repair damage from a dislocated right shoulder. The hope is he will be ready to start the season as the starting second baseman. In reality, shoulder surgeries can take much longer to come back from and can be career ending. Remember Marcus Sanders and Eddie Martinez-Esteve? The Giants need a backup plan. That's where the drama comes in for the Hot Stove season.
Jeff Keppinger has one year of arbitration left and make $2.3 M last year. He started off hot after the Giants acquired him in a trade mid-season, but faded down the stretch. He is a decent defender at 2B with limited range. He's a similar hitter to Freddy Sanchez in that he'll hit for average with doubles power, won't take many walks and will hit into his share of DPs. The other in-house option is Mike Fontenot who is more versatile than Kepp, but not as good a hitter. Fonty is also arbitration eligible and made $1.05 M last year. Lastly, there is Emmanuel Burriss who has been hanging around the fringes of the team seemingly forever. Burriss is an excellent fielder at 2B, can play SS in a pinch and is a difference maker on the basepaths. His big problem is he can't steal first base! So far, he has shown no sign of ever becoming a MLB caliber hitter.
With that background, let's scout the FA and trade market and see what's heating up on the Hot Stove:
Clint Barmes and Jamey Carroll have already been discussed in the SS segment. The Giants like versatility and these guys fit the profile. They both are more versatile than Kepp and either might be an upgrade on Fonty, but would likely cost more $$ than Fonty.
Robinson Cano and Brandon Phillips both have club options that will almost certainly be picked up so mark them off the list.
Rest of the pack: Pretty much the usual suspects here. Orlando Cabrera, Alex Cora, Craig Counsell, Mark Ellis, Jerry Hairston, Jr., Bill Hall, Aaron Hill, Kelly Johnson, Adam Kennedy, Felipe Lopez, Jose Lopez, Aaron Miles, Drew Sutton. If anyone on that list excites you, please discuss.
I think the Giants should re-sign Fonty and offer arbitration if necessary. I don't think they need Kepp, but should try to get something for him. They can either trade him before the arbitration deadline or go ahead and get him signed, offer arbitration if necessary, and then trade him after he is under contract. They can always make another mid-season trade if they have to. There is no need to delve into the FA market at 2B unless it's to sign a Barmes or Carroll to play SS and they'll double as backup options at 2B.
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I think we are good at 2B. We will get Fonty back for around $1.2 and Freddy Sanchez should be ready for Spring Training. We have alot of talent at 2B including Joe Panik and Ryan Cavan and if for some reason we sign a free agent SS such as Rollins or Reyes we could let Fonty go and Brandon Crawford could take his place as a cheap defensive infield replacement. That is what I would hope we would do. Panik is an interesting prospect winning the battle title his first year in the minors. I am thinking we will see a glimpse of him in the pros by 2013 and starting in 2014. Keppinger is the main problem. He is a great hitter but so is Sanchez. If Sanchez was not coming back next year I would have no problem with Kepp starting at 2B but that is not the case. He is an expensive backup but I think he has value. The problem I see is if we don't sign him I could see him going to a rival such as the Dodgers, DBacks or Rockies. The Padres have ODog for the year. I believe we should offer him arbitration and hope a team wants to give him a 2 or 3 year deal so we can get some compensation picks.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree that Freddy coming back from surgery is a big if, but I'll put my money on a guy who overcame a clubbed foot and being pigeon toed to become a major league player, as well as quite a few past surgeries on various knees and shoulders.
ReplyDeleteJamey Carroll has been so underrated he is overrated now. But I do have a use for him: he can teach Manny Burriss how to be a pest and hit those soft liners over the middle infielders. Without that skill, 37 year old Carroll is pretty much useless. Burriss seems like one of the nicest Giants, but he cannot hit whatsoever, so he needs to learn to bunt, chop and pest his way onto first base. Most likely ain't happening, especially because his salary doubles this year if picked up.
Michael Cuddyer looms, especially if they get any hiccup from Freddy in the next month. 3/27-33 and the draft pick! I suggested Kelly Johnson as a cheap alternative - he can play the OF some, and might cost as little as 2/12 or less, due to his awful BA and the K's. Another lefty batter though. I think Clint Barmes would be about the same amount of money? He won't be the OPS threat like Johnson but he is a great fielder at both middle infield positions. Barmes is 33, Johnson is only 30, so he is more attractive from that standpoint.
Have to disagree about Keppinger DrB - he has feet of concrete. His defense is definitely sub-par and he is limited to 2B. He was a good fill in but there is a reason he wasn't even starting for the Astros. Hopefully Sabean can get a pitching prospect back for him, somehow he came off as a Type-A FA which makes no sense.
Having the Hobbit back is a good start, how about DeRosa on a 1MM minor league deal to platoon? The problem with Johnson/Barmes is they are twice the money of Keppinger, who Sabean has already called a luxury. So the plan maybe to roll out Fontenot Burriss and Gillaspie in back of Crawford and Sanchez. Those five cost about 8MM combined. DeRosa may not have any pop due to the wrist but he proved he still had something left and for a 1MM salary that is a nice bet. Plus that all important position versatility. I vote Johnson over Cuddyer, and prefer DeRosa to both due to cost and DeRosa's good D and those sweet veteran intangibles.
I have to disagree on Kelly Johnson. I will give you the guy has power but the K's are ridiculous. Nobody last year on the Giants had over 100 K's and then you bring in a guy who had 162 K's last year. We already have enough free swingers so we do not need more swings and misses. I like Cuddyer but I can see us spending much more than he is worth. I think that we should put our money at SS and CF. I have heard Cuddyer would want 3 years or more and I do not believe we should be giving ANYBODY 3 years or more unless their names are Cain, Lincecum, Pujols, or Reyes.
ReplyDeleteI really like the idea of bringing DeRosa back on the cheap. Sweeten the deal with some incentives. The guy is openly expecting to have to sign a minor league deal, but wants to sign with the Braves or some team closer to his home. Offer the guy an $800 K MLB deal with some incentives and you have very little to lose and he might just take it to avoid having to work with a minor league deal.
ReplyDeleteDon't want Cuddyer for the price and especially the loss of the draft pick which I regard as being akin to gold.
Add Nick Punto to the list of guys who could play both SS and 2B. Punto is extremely underrated.
ReplyDeleteAgree about Johnson and the Ks. Just an alternative to Cuddyer for less money, years and the draft pick. Don't really like either choice, but I'm sure the Giants are looking hard at Cuddyer. I hope they notice his road splits, they are significantly worse. A bigger knock on Johnson is the lefty factor will hinder his power at Pacbell.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is Sabean and Bochy have loved position versatility in recent years, so I'm anticipating it. Mark DeRosa looks pretty good for 1MM/1 year to backup 1st/2nd/3rd and the OF corners in a pinch instead of overpaying for Cuddyer. Also, he's a right handed hitter off the bench who can take a walk, etc. Look at all the LH hitters: Huff, Schierholtz, Belt, Crawford, Fontenot, Gillaspie. 3 of the 5 in-house middle infield options are weak hitting LHers, and Burriss is a no-hit SH. So DeRosa looks good as a backup platoon with the Hobbit if Freddy isn't available.
Reyes is getting 5-7 years, I just can't see the Giants bidding on that. I can't think of a CF worth putting money into. I do think we need to put money into LF one way or the other, I'd just prefer it not to be Cuddyer unless other options aren't available.
In addition to Panik and Ryan Cavan, Culberson and Adam Duvall might have the bats to be poor-man Dan Uggla/Jeff Kent types, but those gloves are pretty bad. Keppinger shouldn't be an option next year with that terrible D though, because his bat isn't good enough to balance out.
I think this discussion brings up the bigger issue of how the bench will look like in 2012. With only 5 spots plus one taken by C, that is why there is such an interest by Giants management in versatility.
ReplyDeleteC is either Stewart or if they can find someone looking for a job in January who they like more, that's one spot.
I have to think that Brett Pill will be holding one spot as well. He can play 1B and LF mostly, plus 2B in a very big pinch. That's two.
I have to think the Giants release Torres and probably sign him to a small base with incentives if he ends up playing a lot of ABs, meaning he's hitting. That's three, leaving two spots.
That's to be battled for by Fontenot, Keppinger, Burriss, most probably.
As Shankbone persuasively notes, the one easy place to upgrade offense is LF, so the Giants could sign a power hitter to battle for LF, but given the uncertainty of that player (unless it is Beltran), the Giants might sign another LF who could battle for starting but most likely take a spot on the bench, assuming the other guy wins the spot.
So, as much as I like DeRosa, and was campaigning for him to come back late in the season, I don't see how the Giants can fit him in right now, unless he is that guy who can battle for LF. Oh, plus he could play 2B very well too, which would make Keppinger unnecessary. OK, so maybe we can fit him in. But then in this scenario, Keppinger is most likely out, unless they keep him as insurance and then trade him near the end of spring training. Expensive insurance, though.
I like DrB's idea to sign DeRosa to a MLB contract, but I still think that if Braves even offer him a minor league contract, he will take it, I think at this point of his career, $1M is not worth being away from his family. Though he might change his mind if they end up sending him to AAA.
The Pirates have announced they are not picking up Ryan Doumit's option. He's another guy who has had trouble staying healthy. I think he broke his leg in a home plate collision about 2 weeks after Buster's injury. It wasn't as bad a break as Buster's so he should be fully recovered by spring. He's a switch hitter with power who can also play 1B. If the price is right, he would make an awfully nice insurance policy against Buster's injury causing lingering problems.
ReplyDeleteAs for DeRosa, Kepp and Burriss, and even Fonty are completely expendable, IMO. They should not be a barrier to re-signing DeRosa. I would say Fonty has the inside track because of his ability to play SS in a pinch but I wouldn't be against letting them all go and signing a Punto who is actually a plus defensive SS.
Another name we're forgetting about here is Conor Gillaspie who will be out of options. I haven't seen him play 3B for a couple of years and maybe he's gotten a lot better, but judging by my observations back then, he's never going to come close to handling 2B.
That makes a lot of sense DrB, you're right, those three are expendable. Hopefully DeRosa will feel some obligation to the Giants and sign with them if they do offer him more than other teams, including the Braves and any other SE team.
ReplyDeleteI've always liked Doumit's offense, though health and defense have been his problems. Him being a switch-hitter helps too, he can platoon with Huff or Belt at 1B as necessary (as well as Posey). And he would be able to handle more than a backup would normally get in terms of work.
Don't see any team offering more than what the Giants could offer in terms of opportunity to play. He's 31, and while he hit well in 2011, not so great in 2009-10. And, oh, his offense is mostly home-grown, he's not been that good on the road, so maybe he's not that good a backup choice, though better than Stewart or Whiteside at this moment. And he doesn't do that well against RHP either, though OK for a catcher, I suppose. Hits well in SF though, so there is that.
Oh yeah, Gillaspie is another candidate for the bench. The talk I heard on him early on was that he won't hit for enough power to stick at 3B, but won't field well enough at 2B to start there either, though his bat should be good enough. In any case, he has defensive concerns at 3B as it is.
Looks like he might have a nice bat though, maybe he can be trading chip with AL team, we'll take their tweener if they'll take ours? Still, I would like to see how his bat plays in the majors first before we trade him. Not sure we have enough space on the bench to do that in 2012.
Punto has never been a good hitter in the majors, is his defense that good? He's had a great season in 2011 with Cards, wow, best ever by large margin. At 34 next season, not likely he can repeat.
Punto has put up WAR 's of between 1.5 and 2 the last 3 years despite limited PT. I think he is one of the most underrated players in baseball, if not THE most underrated.
ReplyDeleteThe Giants have all year at Fresno to test out Gillaspie's 2nd base. Instead, he takes grounders for 4 days at the end of the season and Bochy sings his praises hastily as they realize he's out of options. Its things like this that drive me nuts about this organization. They throw a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
ReplyDeletePunto is a great defender, and totally underrated. He turned a sweet double play just last night. I'd love for him to be the guy. I completely agree most these guys are expendable. The Hobbit can play 2B-SS-3B and hits righties well, that gives him an edge. But if they can get DeRosa and Punto for cheap utility help, giddy up.
Doumit is definitely one of the worst defensive catchers in the league, but so is Mike Napoli. I think you need a 60-80 game alternative plan for Buster next year to be safe, and that plan needs to be able to hit some. Kelly Stoppach might be another idea if the Rays decline his option, but I'm straying from the 2B topic.
Agreed Shankbone. They start playing Brett Pill at 2B in Fresno, bring him up at 1B, then pretend Gillaspie could be a difference maker at a position he's never played?
ReplyDeleteI say resign Fontenot or sign Punto on the cheap then spend your money on an OF bat. I don't care if you have to give Beltran a year and 12mil too much, this league is one of tiny windows, if we're going to win another one, we need to do it soon.
As for Doumit, I would prefer a backup option with less upside with a better health history. Just doesn't make sense to bring in an insurance policy that has had difficulty staying in the lineup.
Great point about Pill Anon. He was asked about playing 2nd - he admitted he had limited range, but he did OK there. With Eldred Ishikawa and sometimes Belt crowding 1B they had to get creative I guess. The irony is Pill was the highest rated D-1B until Belt came along.
ReplyDeleteDoumit has a checkered history, but switch hitting catchers are rare, Hector Sanchez needs another year and... We've always had luck with Ex-pirates...
Dr B where's you 2nd base org post? I'm anxious for your opinions on Cavan and Duvall.
Why do people limit the talent pool so often? Talking about FA's but not potential trades? Talking about 2B without mentioning the farm system (other than Cavan and Burriss, really). I really like Cavan, but no way do Sabean and Bochy move him up from San Jose A+ to MLB.
ReplyDeleteLast year the Giants signed Edgar Gonzalez (Adrian's brother). He's played almost every position, and if he can provide any power, he'd be a perfect UT bench guy at league min.
Or try older prospect Brad Eldred, who made spring training last year.
I'm not convinced Culberson or Gillaspie really make the grade for a MLB 25-man roster... yet. And yeah, Burriss is quite useless and he's had many chances. Too many. He's one of the last of the 2008 crew that will go (Velez, Frandsen, Bowker, Downs, Winn, Ishi, Lewis...).
I hope the Giants realize they CAN'T sign a LF for 2012. The Giants need a CF for 2012 (let Belt take LF while Huff is going to get yet another chance at 1B), and Beltran isn't a CF, Nate isn't either. On MLBTR, the Royals said they'd trade Melky Cabrera for a #4 starter (J. Sanchez?). Or make a massive trade package for Adam Jones or McCutchen.
When Gary Brown comes up, one of them moves to LF. Nate stays in RF. With 2 CF's starting, the 4th OF on the bench can be someone like Kieschnick or Jarrett Parker.
But for 2012, Torres makes the most sense as the 4th OF. His speed and defense make him valuable enough (pinch running, late replacement). If Crawford isn't starting at SS, he should NOT be sitting on the bench for 2012. He should be getting regular PT in Fresno or Richmond, some time at 2B too in case he's needed as Freddy insurance. Heck, give him spot starts in LF/RF and 3B so he can be the next UT for the Giants.
No way do I believe that Kepp has equal gap power as Fontenot. Neither really tears it up, but I think Font would hit more doubles every season. But strikes out much more too.
There's no place for DeRo. Just like Burrell took a roster spot in 2011, it made us shove guys out (think Clayton Tanner and Rohlinger getting released). The Giants will have health question marks all over the field in 2012 (Posey, Sandoval, F. Sanchez, J. Sanchez, Zito, Schierholtz, Romo, Affeldt, Wilson). They don't need to sign another, no matter how 'cheap'.
Can you imagine the line-up on Posey's off-days if he can't catch more than 110 games? What if Sandoval and/or F. Sanchez and/or Schierholtz are on the DL at the same time? DeRo with Huff, Belt, Torres, Crawford, and Stewart is 2011 all over again. No thank you.
Overpay for Ramon Hernandez if the Giants have to. Jose Molina won't be available.
And whatever happened to the top draft pick from a couple years ago, Brock Bond? Why can't he get a call-up in a pinch if Freddy is hurt? Or Stromsmoe who did well during the playoffs last season?
OMG! Where do I start?
ReplyDeleteAnybody care to propose a trade for a 2B? I sure as heck can't think of any!
Yeah, I'll do an organizational depth chart for 2B. Just hold onto your horses. Gotta pace myself here or I'll run out of things to post before the ol' hot stove even gets warm!
Brock Bond was not a high draft pick let alone a top one. The Giants didn't even want to draft him! They thought they were taking Casey Bond and got Brock Bond instead. They took the guy they wanted a round later. BTW, Casey Bond is now a professional actor and played Chad Bradford in the movie Moneyball. Anyway, Brock Bond has shown he can draw walks and hit a few singles. He has no power, no speed, no range and no arm. We're not going to see him playing 2B for the Giants in the near future or ever.
Stromsmoe is another strictly organizational player.
Not sure how you are going to make a blockbuster trade for an Adam Jones without giving up Gary Brown and the Pirates aren't trading McCutchen for any package in the world. I could see the Giants trading for Bossman Jr. but I can guarantee you, Brown would be part of the package going to TB.
Yes, I can imagine the lineup on Posey's off days which is why I proposed they go after Doumit. I know he's missed games the last 2 years but last year's injury was a fluke that he should recover completely from. Dude can flat out hit!
DrB,
ReplyDeleteI agree with trading to get BJ Upton. He should expect a nice raise in arbitration and the Rays may want to cut ties. He will make more than Evan Longoria next year. I would say that we should at least have the conversation at the Winter Meetings to see what it would cost. He is still young abd could easily move to left when Brown is ready.
I think we can stick with what we have at 2B whether it is Freddy Sanchez or Crawford if he gets hurt. Fontenot would be nice at $1 million. Doumit would be nice as a backup for Posey but only if it is cheap. Otherwise I think A combination or Chris Stewart or Hector Sanchez. Sanchez seemed to do okay with the limited playing he received. I think he definitely would hit better than Stewart. Tommy Joseph may just get the call up in September if we fall out of contention. I think Joseph could be a better defensive version of Mike Napoli. If he keeps hitting well he may just push Posey to 1B. Posey is too valuable to take hits like last year.
Just joking DrB take your time on those reviews.
ReplyDeleteWatching Napoli go off as well as Beltre's sweet D I'm impressed with how Texas has improved. Sabean brings us Tejada, doesn't measure up very well now does it? It would be nice to get a truly talented young player instead of the same old same old. What a win on that trade for Texas, and they were the afterthought. I hope Mike Scoscia is gritting his teeth big time tonight.
So yeah Roger, why not go after BJ Upton. Or Carlos Quentin. The only way we are truly going to improve is through a trade. I like what you're thinking about Tommy Joseph. Mike Napoli is leaving quite an impression this postseason for sure. Now the question: would you trade Tommy Joseph to get at Upton or any other win now type?
OK, let's all say this together so we don't forget: If we trade for BJ Upton or almost any other difference maker, we will have to give up Gary Brown!
ReplyDeleteThat means we'll have to find another CF of the future when the short term solution moves on.
DrB,
ReplyDeleteI agree that we would probably have to give up Brown for Upton, but it isn't set in stone. They already have a great CF waiting in the wings named Desmond Jennings. He played mostly LF because of Upton last year but I have heard he is a legit CF. Maybe they would want pitching instead. Anyways, I would still hope we would at least spin the tires on him. Adam Jones is another that we could possibly trade for but for some reason Baltimore keeps thinking it is going to compete with the Rays, Red Sox, and Yankees. Hey, even Toronto is better than them. I am surprised they haven't gutted their team letting Jones or Markakis go. It would be hilarious if the Dodgers let Kemp test Free Agency in a few years and we got him. It would be the ultimate FU to Dodger fans. He is a great CF and a 5 tools player. I would be okay with trading Brown if we got Kemp.
I wouldn't give up Gary Brown for B.J.Upton or Quentin, but I think I would part with Tommy Joseph for one of them. Acquiring either one would help the team win now. Joseph has a promising future, but the idea of adding Upton or Quentin if it only meant starting with Joseph as the trade chip. I would do it in a heart beat.
ReplyDeleteWould you be willing to give up Gary Brown for Hanley Ramirez? I wonder if this trade idea has crossed Sabean's mind. Seeing the soon to be Miami Marlins trading Ramirez moving into there new park is probably unlikely, but an interesting idea.
Well, I'm not quite sure what's up with Hanley these days. Something ain't right there that's a little tough to put a finger on.
ReplyDeleteAs for the basic principle of trading Gary Brown, yeah, I'd include Brown for a player the Giants need now. I would have preferred to deal Brown for Beltran than Wheeler. Brown isn't the only potential future CF in the organization. Peguero is a similar player and I'm quite enthusiastic about Galindo.
DrB,
ReplyDeleteWell, other than the fact that he was having his worst yr at the plate before having season ending surgery on his left shoulder. He's also been accused of the lack of hustle, leadership, and his present physical condition to the point where a position change to 2B was being mulled over. Nevertheless Hanley is expected back by opening day though that could change. Even with all that said I'd still be willing to trade Brown for him because when he's on top of his gm he is a 5 tool player, still fairly young turning 28 in Dec., plays a position the Giants sorely need, and would still be under contract until 2014 at a respectable price. Though it's really hard to see the Marlins selling him so low right now, it's basically a moot point.
If Brown is packaged to acquire a player like Ramirez or Kemp than I would be ok with it, but other than those to I really don't see any other player worth giving up Brown for. I would have to disagree with you about rather giving up Brown for Beltran simply because the Giants as you know are already strong in the SP department. True you can never have enough pitching, but they traded away from there strength because the have some lay away there. Until recently with Sandoval,Posey, and hopefully Belt the Giants haven't really produced and positon players. Which to me makes Brown that more attractive to hold onto. Especially a player that's drawn early comparisons to Jacoby Ellsbury you can't give that up. We all know the Giants currently don't have a long term option atop the order and in CF which makes it that more evident that Brown should be held onto. Peguero and Galindo could be a nice players as well, but can we agree that they don't have as high a ceiling as Brown does.
What's important in taking inventory of prospects and organizational depth, is not what's at the MLB level, but in the minors. You have to look into the future. What happens if either Cain or Timmy go down with a career ending injury? What happens when Cain, Timmy and Bum all get insanely expensive at the same time. Not saying the Giants can't rebuild their pitching depth, but Wheels was the only prospect with an ace ceiling within hailing distance of the majors, and even he was at least 2 years away.
ReplyDeleteThat is why I believe Brown was more expendable then Wheeler at the trading deadline. Nevertheless, if that's what it took to get Beltran, it had to be done as Beltran was their one shot at getting back to the playoffs and possibly the WS.