I remember as a kid being envious of the Dodgers' pitching rotation. Of course the Dodgers had Sandy Koufax, who was generally acknowledged to be the best pitcher in baseball, and Don Drysdale, also very good, but a guy the Giants always seemed to do pretty well against. The Giants countered with Juan Marichal and Gaylord Perry, two guys I thought matched up pretty well against Koufax and Drysdale. So why was I envious of the Dodgers' rotation? Claude Osteen! The Giants had no answer for Claude Osteen! I've never heard anyone mention Claude Osteen in the same context as Koufax, Drysdale, Marichal and Perry, but Osteen was the hammer who the Giants had no counter for. In the 1965 World Series between the Dodgers and Minnesota Twins, the Twins shockingly beat both Drysdale and Koufax in the first two games in Minnesota. Guess who stopped the bleeding and started a 3 game winning streak for the Dodgers once the series got back to LA. That's right Claude Osteen. I think he pitched a 4-0 shutout, or something like that. He was also often the difference in the Dodgers winning 2 out of 3 in Giants-Dodgers series during the regular season.
As I was watching the postgame show on TBS after the Giants won game 4 and the NLDS series, there was a segment on the Phillies' top 3 starters and comparing them to other great top 3's. They didn't mention Koufax, Drysdale and Claude Osteen, but they did mention the Orioles of the late 60's and early 70's, Mike Cuellar, Dave McNally and Jim Palmer. Of course, they also brought up Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and John Smoltz of the Braves. Perhaps the greatest 4 man rotation in history belonged to the Baltimore Orioles for a couple of seasons when Pat Dobson won 20 games along with Cuellar, McNally and Palmer. One of my earliest baseball memories is of a precursor to the Orioles great rotation, McNally, Steve Barber and a very young Jim Palmer allowing just 2 runs to the Dodgers while sweeping them in 4 games in the 1966 World Series. One 3 man rotatation that I haven't seen mentioned but deserves to be in the discussion was the Oakland A's of the early 70's: Catfish Hunter, Vida Blue and Ken Holtzman. They had John "Blue Moon" Odom to make it a 4 man in 1972. The 1989 Oakland A's had a pretty darn good 4 man in Dave Stewart, Mike Moore, Bob Welch and Storm Davis, but that team was much better known for their hitting.
There have been several great 1-2 pitching combinations over the years: Spahn/Sain, Marichal/Perry, Seaver/Koosman, RJ/Curt Schilling and more but there haven't been a lot of great 3 man combos and even fewer 4 man rotations, which brings us to the 2010 Phillies. The Phillies have assembled a top 3 triad, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt and Cole Hamels that is, indeed quite impressive. In fact, I would say it stacks up quite favorably with the very few great 3 man combos assembled in the history of baseball. It features a perennial Cy Young candidate who, at age 33 has won 169 MLB games and appears to be still on the upward trajectory of his career. With the longevity of MLB pitchers that has become almost routine these days, 300 wins and a HOF induction loom as a real possibility for Roy Halladay. The fact that he is coming off a regular season perfect game and only the second no-hitter in post-season history only adds to the awe with which he is being regarded. Roy Oswalt is a perennial top pitcher and Cole Hamels is a young LHP pitching phenom who appears to be finally coming into his own as a star. All of these pitchers have post-season experience except Roy Halladay and he apparently doesn't need any!
So, how do the Giants stand a chance in the face of an obviously superior lineup and this incredible triad of pitching talent? The answer is that the Giants have assembled a few pretty good pitchers of their own. I mean, while everybody is oohing and ahhing over Roy Halladay, Tim Lincecum brings some pretty incredible credentials to the table himself like 2 Cy Young awards in his first two full seasons. THAT has never been done before! 3 time league strikeout leader in 3 consecutive seaons, only accomplished twice before since WWII by Warren Spahn and Randy Johnson. You think Roy Halladay's no-no was impressive? By some measurements, Timmy's complete game 2-hit shutout of the Braves with 14 K's was even more dominant! Then there's Matt Cain who is not as brilliant as Timmy, but matches up with a Roy Oswalt very favorably. Cainer turned in the terrific second half of this season marred only by a late season shelling by the Padres in game 160. Jonathan Sanchez, much like Cole Hamels is just coming into his own. His K/9 has always been in elite territory, but now he is starting to harness that awesome talent by keeping his emotions in check and trusting his stuff enough to go after hitters rather than nibble his way to an early exit due to walks and pitch counts.
What the Giants have, that the Phillies don't, is a 4'th starter that deserves to be in the discussion here. As Jim Palmer proved in 1966, you don't have to be a veteran pitcher to take on the best. More often than not, pitching aces got to that lofty designation with dominating performances at a young age. Madison Bumgarner, a young pitching phenom, whose apparent lack of conditioning in the spring drew questions from none other than the GM who drafted him, Brian Sabean. Like a true champion, Bumgarner rose to the challenge and has become somthing of a workout fiend, observed yesterday by Andy Baggerly to be running the stands with Matt Cain. The result is MadBum getting progressively stronger as the season has gone along. In Game 4, in which he won the NLDS clinching game against the Braves, his fastball was clocked at 95 MPH in the first inning and sat at 93-94 the whole game. That's a far cry from the 88 with which he arrived in the major league amid widespread disappointment late last season. What he now has, that he didn't have when he was putting up record setting numbers in the minor leagues, is an arsenal of secondary pitches to go with the heat.
I believe that the Giants, over the next 2-3 seasons are entering a period where they will have one of the greatest, if not THE greatest top 4 in their starting rotation of all time. What I'm hoping for, is that we have already entered that era and just don't know it yet, much like the 1966 Baltimore Orioles with a young pitcher named Jim Palmer.
How do you think the Giants pitchers compare to the 2010 Phillies and in baseball history?
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the national press is saying that the phillies top 3 would all be number ones on any other team
ReplyDeletewhy they arent saying that about the giants is anyone's guess.
while timmy may be the ace, i would trust both cain and durty to anchor a rotation...i wouldnt have said that last season.
its amazing to watch pitchers grow...when they are given the chance.
and i am glad that sabean fought off the urges to deal any of them for a bat...a rotation like this comes once in a lifetime.
totally impressed with madbum....not sure what the questions last year and spring were about...pitching is 90 percent mental...its about focus....look at ankiel...million dollar arm, 50 cent head...look at durty and how long it took him to get over his ability to hold focus for an entire 7 innings...so here was this kid who sister was ill (and then passed away) was about to get married (and then did) so it was all about focus and mechanics...and it seems that a short stay at fresno, and a few sessions with tidrow, were all that the kid needed...hes been brilliant...and barring injury, will only get better.
cain is a workhorse...and i credit sabeans early offseason chat with him regarding condtioning....if someone has to go on 3 days rest, i trust that he would be able to.
what can you say about timmy...he has become the craftiest pitcher around...i am sure that he will get back his velocity, but until then, he taught himself a new slider that seems unhittable...and he did it in 6 weeks....amazing...
to me, the most impressive has been durty..he has remade himself...he has become self aware...long gone are the flop sweat innings..he can work with men on base....his balls dart all over the k zone...his focus is the same in inning 7 as it is in inning 1
best rotation i have ever seen in a giants uni
they will go into philli with no fear...
dont know how they stack up against the other hof rotations...why dont we ask marichal?
Oh yeah, easily the best rotation in SF Giants history. Marichal and Perry were special, but the dropoff after them was Grand Canyonesque! It am still haunted at the thought of what might have been in 1967 had Marichal had even an average season for him when Mike McCormick won the Cy Young Award.
ReplyDeleteI do think there was legitimate reason for concern when Bumgarner showed up throwing 88 MPH. Losses of velocity that dramatic are generally not good signs. Some of it may have been mechanical, but after Sabean's comments early in the season, hearing about his running in the stands with Matt Cain and watching his velocity gradually build back up, I've got to believe conditioning was an issue. Maybe there was good reason why he was out of shape, these guys are human too, but it looks to me like it was a factor. Of course, that's a lot better than it being due to a hurt arm!
Timmy's velocity hasn't been too shabby lately either. He's been hitting 92-93 with some regularity. Timmy does seem to have a knack for being able to dust off seemingly forgotten or abandoned pitches and polish them up in a big hurry, doesn't he?
I think one mistake some observers are making is looking at full season numbers when comparing the Phillies and Giants rotations. Each of the Giants starters went through struggles earlier in the season that are totally explainable and are totally over. They need to be looking at second half numbers, especially down the stretch in September, not that the full season numbers are all that terrible.
ReplyDeleteI think it's a draw between the two rotations.
ReplyDeleteBut if I had to make a choice between the two, I would take the Phillies’ one over the 162 games because of their consistency. As you said the giants rotation had up and down during the year (Sanchez in July, Lincecum in August), I don't think it happened to the Philadelphia trio (Oswalt maybe ?).
If I have to make the choice for this series I would take the Giants one.
Not because of the talent but because of Halladay & Bumgarner.
Of course Halladay is a workhorse but he has already pitched 250 innings this season and he may have to pitch 3 games in this series. I think there is a possibility that the fatigue will catch him (well the Reds may not agree with me and maybe the schedule allows him to rest properly), but still it’s a huge workload. And if we are talking about the match up between both pitchers, cool weather is better for Lincecum … By the way it's cold now in Paris.
The key, may be Bumgarner. He will be better than Halladay on short rest (well if I am right about the workload) and Blanton don’t even come into consideration (or shouldn’t but Giant offense is the Giant offense).
As for the comparison with other Giants rotation, I can’t tell. The first games I saw from the Giants were in 1989 during the series against the A’s. We had some pretty good pitchers back then and since, but during the last 20 years, I can only see Jason Schmidt who could best one of these pitchers (even Lincecum) and only two rotations that could be compared, the 1993 one (Swift, Burkett, Wilson) and the 1989 one (Reuschel, Garrelts, Don Robinson).
But at that time I couldn’t follow Giant Baseball as well as I can now, much of what I knew came from newspapers and some video tapes that American friends sent to me.
Still the one argument that makes this rotation so special to us and to the club spirit is that all of them are young and come from our farm system so it can’t be the same magnitude. And US media can't understand that .... Can they ?
Go Giants
GIP
The one rotation that stands out in my mind was Barr, Montefusco, Halicki, and Knepper. I thought that we had a chance with that rotation, but oh well...
ReplyDeleteAs for the Philly vs Giants, would Oswalt and Hamels really be #1 on the Giants' rotation? If these two were on the Giants, where would they fit?
That's the thing that bothers me greatly, saying that Sabean fought the urge to trade the pitchers. It was the fans who wanted to trade the pitchers. Sabean indicated, if anything, he was unwilling to trade any of the pitchers, pointing out numerous times that they are untouchable, even with the Toronto rumor, he basically said that he normally would not consider any trade for our pitchers but in the Giants situation, he felt he had to listen to any offer. But that's all he did, listen.
ReplyDeleteI think MadBum over Blanton tips it totally to the Giants in terms of 4-man rotation. I would have been comfortable with Bumgarner facing any of the H2O.
History side, have to point to Orioles of early 70's as you did (I will point out that Pat Dobson advised Brian Sabean until his untimely and early death and give him shout out for contributing to this strategy of focusing on pitching). Not really aware of any rotation that good, top to bottom.
The way matchups are in this series, we should break even on Lincecum-Halladay, Cain-Oswalt, Sanchez-Hamels, leaving Bumgarner-Blanton as the tie-breaker. I like the Giants chances now.
GIP named the Giants rotations, as well as anon, in terms of better Giants rotations. I love the 70's Giants, but cannot put Barr, Montefusco, Halicki, and Knepper up there (and was Knepper even ever on same team as the three? Memory fading...).
Thanks for the feedback and discussion everybody. Great insights!
ReplyDelete