Tuesday, July 30, 2013

Game Wrap 7/30/2013: Phillies 7 Giants 3

You knew it wasn't going to be a good day when Buster Posey called in sick just before gametime.  Barry Zito was shaky in the first inning and couldn't get out of the 4'th.  The rest of the game was a sleepwalk.  Key Lines:

Andres Torres-  1 for 3, 2B, BB.  BA= .255.  I love Andres Torres.  I will always remember his amazing 2010 season and what it meant for him and for the Giants.  I love that he wanted to come back to SF so bad.  The problem is, he is 35 years old and not part of the future of this team.  As a fan, I would much rather see Juan Perez or Gary Brown out in CF than Torres at this point.

Marco Scutaro- 1 for 2, BB, Sac.  BA= .314.  Scutaro could really help a contending team.  I'm not in love with his contract for the next 2 years.  Unfortunately, the Detroit connection flew out the window today in the Peavy 3-way trade.

Pablo Sandoval- 1 for 3, SF.  BA= .271.  Pablo is about the only guy really producing right now.

Brett Pill- 3 for 4.  BA= .226.  Pill probably earned himself some more looks with this performance.  Hopefully he gets some chances against RHP's too.

Jeff Francoeur- 0 for 4.  BA= .203.  I can see giving Frenchy 100 AB's or so to see if he can get anything going.  He was one of to top prospects in all of baseball once upon a time and you can see why when you look at him.  There's gotta be an endpoint somewhere though.  How long do the Giants give him?

Barry Zito- 3.1 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 2 K's.  ERA= 5.09.  Zito threw something like 43 pitches in the first inning alone.  He seemed to stabilize in the next 2, but then gave up a 2 run blast to Ruiz in the 4'th and hit the showers early.  It seems that the Giants must be reaching a tipping point with Zito where they make a decision that they are not bringing him back next year.  Hard to imagine the Giants releasing him mid-season, and in some ways he deserves better than that.  On the other hand, as a fan, if this is the type of performance he is giving, I'd much rather see a young pitcher struggle or succeed.  Moscoso?  Kickham?  Surkamp?  Petit?  Heck, bring up Edwin Escobar and see what he can do!  Gotta say, the probability that Zito's option gets picked up for next year is dwindling with each start like this one.

Not gonna bother with the standings from here on.

Chad Gaudin takes on Kyle Kendrick tomorrow evening in Philly in a battle of two pitchers from my fantasy team.

Around the League:   The Tigers obviously expect Jhonny Peralta to be suspended so they got in on the Jake Peavy fun by sending Avisail Garcia and a SS prospect named Cleuluis (Clueless?) Rondon to the White Sox while acquiring Jose Iglesias from the Red Sox.


  1. I think the Giants are done with Zito. His leash keeps getting shorter and Bochy's facial expressions are pained.

    I know Moscoso gave up a couple of runs but I thought his stuff looked ok for the most part. Had some good velocity and kept the ball low. I'd rather run him out there than Zito.

    Still think the Giants need another true middle infielder. After Arias went in on a double switch in the 4th we were done with bench depth in that area. An injury to Pablo or Marco and Pill moves over to their positions. Not who we want there in the later innings when defense can matter.

    1. So Pill has to play SS for part of 1 game. Whotheheck cares? The season is lost anyway.

  2. If the starters can't perform why worry about the bench?? Right now that should be the least worry. When is Bochy and the Giants going to stop playing Francoeur?? He's done since 2010 only 1 good season. Sabs tried to ride his luck but it aint work this time, time to release him.

    keep riding Pill at 1B lets see what he does in 20 straight games. Belt has had his chance and nothing this aint HS or college its the bigs you cant wait forever its all about getting your chance and taking. Belt, well he looks like he didnt take at least not with the Giants 2 yrs and the same stuff time to give up on him and sell high (Norris??)

    Boston gave up nothing for Peavy. Typical Red Sox trade.. selling high on players they know have no future with them.

    Wheeler flirted with a no-no. Guy is going to be real good. that trade going to bite Sabs in a$$

    1. I think Sabes knew full well what he was giving up in Wheeler. He had a championship to defend and needed a good hitter fast. It didn't work out. Water under the bridge.

    2. keep telling yourself this as the giants struggle to put together a solid rotation for 2014

      every trade matters

      trading a frontline pitching prospect for a busted up rental is not good baseball

      and it was one of the things that got bowtie kicked from his position

      sabey sabes...the teflon gm


    3. I agree that the Zack Wheeler trade was a bad move. Its water under the bridge since the Giants have won 2 World Series in 3 years. I'd rather have a GM who takes chances then one who can't pull the trigger on a big deal.

      My criticism of the org is it seems like they haven't addressed their lack of starting pitching depth in the high minors for the past 2-3 seasons. It seemed like Wheeler was their only frontline pitching prospect and they traded him. It really came back to bite them this year. Thankfully they have a bunch of pitchers coming up in the low minors.

      I watched some of the mets game and Wheeler pitched his best game of the year. I liked how he threw free and easy in the mid to high 90's and had good mechanics with his slider. He threw alot of 1st pitch fastball for strikes and pitched with alot of confidence. If this guy figures it out, watch out in a couple of years!


    4. The only way they could have possibly addressed pitching in the high minors is if they traded a frontline veteran for pitching prospects. No way was that happening under the circumstances of the big club. Have an ounce of patience, people! There is tons of pitching depth in the lower minors and it will reach the high minors and majors in due time. Escobar is already pitching dominant games in AA and getting shoutouts from his catcher on twitter. Mejia has already held his own in a AAA game. It's going to happen, guys!!

      Back in 2008 and 2009 when I said the Giants were as well positioned for the future as any team in baseball, even I was surprised at how fast it happened. I am now a bit surprised at how fast it all fell apart. I still think they are well positioned for the future and I think we'll all be surprised once again by how fast it happens.

      And Bacci,

      The Wheeler trade had nothing at all to do with Bowtie. You are just pulling that out of your behinder and waving it around. For the umteenth time, when you are the defending champ and you have a chance to repeat, you pull out the stops. If you need hitting and that's what it takes to get the best available hitter, you pull the trigger. It didn't work out. Let. It. Go!!!!!!!

    5. doc

      were the giants in first place at the time of trade?

      was carlos injured before the trade was made?

      was the fan base not told that no trades using frontline prospects for rentals would go down?

      was i upset at the trade at the time it happened?

      did carlos choose to be a sour puss from the moment he stepped into sf?

      the answers to all of the above is yes

      and yes, the duke was the driving force behind the trade...and when everything collapsed, he was the scapegoat

      and just like i will never forgive the club for trading bobby bonds for bobby (i hate sf) murcer...i will never forgive this trade

      i have spoken


    6. Yes, the Giants were in first place at the time of the trade and desperately needed a bat.

      Beltran was playing every day for the Mets before the trade.

      No, Sabes did not make any promises about not trading for a rental.

      Yes, you were upset at the time of the trade. I disagreed with you at the time of the trade, still do.

      Carlos Beltran is not an rah-rah guy. That's not what the Giants were trading for.

      I don't know if Bowtie was the driving force behind the trade. It had NOTHING to do with his ownership situation. I would be willing to bet that most of the partners had no idea who Zack Wheeler was or is. I believe the owners want to win, but only in the context of making money, or at least not losing it. Bowtie was getting a little too independent with his handling of the moolah. THAT is why he was forced to step down!

    7. Sabean needed at least 2 more good hitters, not just one to compete and he knew it.

      In 2010, it was Posey, Panda, Huff and, not just for luxury, he added Burrell. He had to add Burrell.

      In July 2011, we were down to only Panda as far as the middle part of the lineup was concerned.

    8. Beltran WAS healthy at the trade. He hurt himself very soon after. You don't get that as a fact Bacci.

      Bow Tie got a little cavalier on the approval process. Cutting loose Tejada/Rowand as well as Beltran approval cost him. Minority owners don't understand the concept of sunk cost.

      The part that Bacci doesn't want to focus on: the Giants had Crick/Blackburn for a month plus to observe/teach. They also had Surkamp tearing it up at the time. They also have a pretty mean track record on pitching. That all added up to one go for it moment. I always say they were 4 up. Maybe I'll go look that up to make sure. When you're 4 games up to repeat - you go for it. Can you imagine the fallout for not going for it? Are you kidding me?

    9. You go for it with the players you got - that's what I thought I read was how the players reacted at the time.

    10. Never forgive this trade? I'll never forgive all the people who were so down on the Giants from 2007-2013, always agitating to get rid of Sabean and Bochy, the two people most responsible for giving us two World Championships, where is my apology for all that wrongness and the public smearing that could have swayed some owners to oust either of them? That bugged the hell out of me, and got me expunged from MCC's list of Giants bloggers. I give thanks all the time that Sabean and Bochy delivered these two championships to us, I don't understand why there are those who can't do that simple thing.

      Wheeler is a good pitcher, but he's still tremendously wild. 4.5 BB/9, only 7.1 K/9, that is not the profile of a pitcher for whom one would "never forgive for trading", a 1.57 K/BB is very forgettable. Also, his BABIP of .242 is likely to be not sustainable unless he's one of the rare pitchers, like Cain and Zito, who could sustain a lowered BABIP for enough years that it was statistically significant that they had the skill to prevent hits really well.

      He's going to have to lower his BB, raise his K, lower his HR/9 from the very high 1.4, and maintain his low BABIP to be a trade that is unforgivable. 50% DOM so far is very good, but 25% DIS is not good at all, and changing one start where he really struggled and I would give him a DIS, he then have been a horrible 37.5% DIS, his statistical record is so small that changing one factor by one unit can have a huge effect on key metrics.

      Wheeler has done nicely so far, but we cannot tell right now if he's just been very lucky or not, meanwhile, his peripherals are not very indicative of a great pitcher for whom one would not forgive for trading, either in the minors nor in the majors. He's also getting killed at home, balancing for number of games pitched, he would have basically a 4.00 ERA, again, not a pitcher to not forgive for trading. And his numbers in the minors support a 4.00-ish ERA in the majors, not an ace starter.

      FYI, the Bobby Bonds trade broke my heart but its been nearly 40 years now and Bobby is now gone, may he rest in peace. The time to move on were the Humm Baby years, perhaps when he and Barry rejoined the franchise, and certainly by now, with two World Championships now proudly in our grasp. Though this explains everything now.

      I mean, I'll never forgive Tom Haller for letting Barry Bonds get away from us, luckily we got him back later, but you know what? He's no longer with the club, different owners too. Same for Bobby. The "team" didn't do the trades, it was people, and those people are long gone from the Giants.

      And while Sabean did promise no trade rentals in 2012, he made no such promises in 2011, so I agree with DrB on that. Also, at the time of the trade, Beltran had played in 98 of the Mets 103 games, starting in 94 of them. That works out to 148 games started, roughly 155 games played. However, to bacci's point, he did miss 3 games July 16-18, but here is his hitting for the Mets until the Giants traded for him: .320/.500/.520/1.020 in 8 starts, 38 PA, in 8 Mets games. His injury didn't seem to affect him there. After joining us, .244/.261/.356/.616 before he went on the DL for 15 days, missing 13 games.

    11. Numbers are not that critical.

      You got Pence hitting something like .240 but drove in runs. Most importantly, it was his 'chemistry.'

      Part of the player's 'you didn't trust us' has got to be chemistry related.

      And for the ultimate price of Wheeler + Joseph (and some), you could have had Pence for around 2.5 years, approximately, assuming you could pull it off. We don't know for sure, even now.

      In any case, it's either 'water under the bridge' or 'it's not under the bridge and let's review and discuss it'

      You can't have 'it's under the bridge' and 'here are my points.'

      If you say 'here are my points,' allow the other side to respond.

  3. hey, what happened to the "lets trade for and buy everyone" post?

    was almost as funny as most of the calls to knbr


    1. Comments like that don't stick around very long on this site. I follow the Jim Rome plan. Have a take. Don't $#@&! Except I really mean it!

    2. Bacci, if you can't even appreciate a two titles in 3 years, and still feel the need to complain about trades from 2 years ago, then I feel bad for you. Nobody complained an ounce about the Wheeler trade when the Giants were winning last now. Now, we lose and people are digging up the past. To me, that's the definition of fair-weather, not to mention hardcore pessimism. It's too bad you can't support this team through thick and thin.

    3. I appreciate the titles. I prefer sustained competitive and winning teams
      I want the giants to be more like the cards and the atl
      I want a strong feeder farm system
      And I want free gaic fries with my burger
      Have you seen the crap that Wilson is dishing.?
      I'm hoping they give him one rehab at rancho
      Cuz I will sit in the pen area and give him an ear full

    4. Unfortunately, they don't give out free garlic fries in the Rookie Pioneer League, let alone San Francisco, the most expensive city in the world. But I see what you mean. Maybe the Cards and Braves have good teams and strong farms, but where are all of the Braves' titles to show for it? And who won the World Series last year again? St. Louis? All I'm saying is, you can rip the org. all you want for their decisions this season, some of which have definitely contributed to the current status. But let the Wheeler trade go. We've had plenty to cheer about lately. Nobody feels bad for us.

    5. I'd agree with that - I want STL and ATL type farm systems as well. But you have to look at strengths/weaknesses and I'd point out a ton of the ATL guys have earned their WAR scores with other teams laundry. I think the Giants are building very nice depth using very similar strategies that STL employs actually. And I've comped the past 10 drafts in a post on my blog, and the G's hang tough with the Cards.

      The Beard is lying through his teeth. The Gints offered him a minor league deal several times along the way. They'll most likely sit still and take it. But every once in a while they correct the perception and what the player says. Cody Ross claimed they didn't give him an offer. They not only gave him an offer he agreed and then backed out of it! I got that confirmed with my sources not only beat guys. Sabes was furious about that one.

    6. Sabean might get a tad too emotional sometimes... but he is already out there correcting the Beard's statements:

      Sabean also reacted somewhat angrily to the suggestion that the Giants were not interested, saying they attended all of his workouts and stayed in contact with Wilson’s representatives.

      “We were interested right until the end before he signed,” Sabean said

    7. wilson lied like a dog

      the giants, bucs and rangers were very interested

      none were gonna give him a mil for a month as a setup guy

      and i hear his is gonna get a couple of rehab days at rancho

      i am so there

      wanna join me?

      2 old dudes razzin that lying bastard...should be fun

    8. Bacci,

      In general I agree that you do not trade top prospects for a rental. I just think the Giants were in a unique position in 2011 that justified doing the Hail Mary trade: Defending champs, first place, great pitching, best hitter injured, moribund offense, opportunity to get the best hitter on the market. I just think they had to go for it under those circumstances.

    9. Dodgers spend the moneys, they get their guy.

      Sabean never trades for rentals - it was completely out of character. They won't be doing it again for a while I imagine.

    10. I'd crack up to hear DrB and Bacci hecklin' Wilson. That would be some good stuff.

  4. As for Wheeler, I didn't like the trade but I have no complaints that it was done. Look at Washington after their stupid pitch count move. With the Mets re-establishing themselves, it very well may be that Washington missed its window. My point is many factors go into winning a WS: you have to have a few guys with career years, catch fire at the right time, etc. The Dodgers are doing it this year. Do I think they will have a decade of wins? Of course not--once we get back on our feet, and injuries being what they are, we may look back and see this is their only shot. The same is possibly true of Washington last year. So, in that context, not knowing we'd win it all a year later, not knowing Wheeler doesn't blow out his arm or become the next Boof, yes, sure, good move.

    Guys, don't give up hope. Dr. B is absolutely right on momentum changes. Look at our pitchers in AA and A ball--Crick, Blackburn, Agousta, Escobar, Meja and Flores. That doesn't include Stratton. And entire pitching staff with +1 (or more) just in case. They're two years off. And all of a sudden we have catchers (Susac), 1b (Angel v), SS (Andrianza/ Duffy), 2b (Panik), 3b (Duvall and Dominquez) and OFs (various) that may be productive at some level. RP is also there with guys like Hembree, Osich, etc. Not all of these guys are going to hit, but with the core guys we've got (Posey, Crawford, Pagan), and other guys we hope can either continue to produce (Panda and Scutaro) or will turn the corner (Belt/Pill), we're in very good shape. Next year might be tough, but I think by 2015 (if not earlier) we're in fine shape. This year (and maybe next) are just down, but the front office is making nice moves.

    As for Scutaro, my sense is 3 years was a bit longer but not too long. He just needs to produce next year, and then hopefully Panik will be ready (or maybe one of our SS moves over to 2b).


  5. With the Giants really tanking, its sort of a shame. Look at the Cards - they just lost Molina, maybe for a large amount of time, and the Wild Card might just get interesting. You never know, that's why you grind on. This team is too good at its foundation, we're not going to finish with the 5th lowest record. So they need to start winning. 50-10 baby. Worked in 1951. (of course they didn't win it all that year...)

    1. The key is to give your best always.


      As in, you can be happy with winning twice in 3 years and still look at each transaction hoping to give the best you got.

      So, on the merit and leave out winning twice in 3 years.

      Always your best each moment.

      Hopefully they start winning.

      But your best every time.

  6. this team needs depth on the farm...so of course no moves at deadline

    i do like that now a team can trade certain draft choices for help now

    does it look like the snakes are conceding the race to the bums? they dumped kennedy and did nothing else


    1. Well the idea of the D'Backs dumping Kennedy was to free up salary space to acquire a Peavy type pitcher. There were supposedly a couple of backup plans to Peavy, but then no corresponding deal to dovetail with the Kennedy trade. They may feel they have better options than Kennedy internally or they may think they can still get do a deal for a pitcher who passes through waivers. In any case, I don't think they are conceding.