Jeffrey Gross, writing for hardballtimes.com, put out a ranking of the top 100 fantasy starting pitchers today. I have to say I have seldom been as disgusted and even downright angry at the arrogance of someone who claims to know something about baseball. I was specifically PO'd, not just at his ranking of Matt Cain at an absurdly low #38, but at the comments he made later, as well as his responses to my objections in the comments section.
Just for a frame of reference, here is a list of some of the pitchers he had ranked above Cainer: Mat Latos, Max Scherzer, Yovani Gallardo, Ricky Nolasco, Jeremy Hellickson, Shaun Marcum, Hiroki Kuroda, Colby Lewis, Brett Anderson, Madison Bumgarner(yes, Madison Bumgarner!), Ted Lilly, Jhoulys Chacin, Wandy Rodriguez, Josh Beckett, Phil Hughes, Daniel Hudson.
Now, those are some pretty good pitchers there, but ahead of Matt Cain? Here's what Gross had to say in his commentary: "Matt Cain ranked 38? Yeah, that's right. I hate Matt Cain. I wish I could justify slotting him even lower, but I can't." Really? He hates Matt Cain? Then he has no business writing for a reputable baseball website nor giving drafting advice to fantasy baseball players! I was so taken aback by that quote, I at first thought he was being sarcastic, but he wasn't! When I called him out on it, his response was pretty hostile and defensive. He trotted out something about a drop in swinging strike % and threw out a comp to Carlos Zambrano who he apparently hates too. I pointed out that Zambrano has had both physical and mental health problems the last 2 years and will still probably have a sub-4 ERA in 2011. I also pointed out that Cain's BB/9 has trended down for 3 seasons while his HR rates and LOB rates have been stable. Gross came back admitting that he has no explanation for Cainer's HR/FB% and reiterated that he really thinks Cain should be outside the top 40, then stated he won't be drafting Cain at all! I must have gotten under his skin because he ignored my last response and then wrote a sarcastic comment about Cain over on fangraphs.com in an article about Matt Garza, "But hey! If Matt Cain can do it...."
It appears that Jeffrey Gross is basing most, if not all, of his rankings on a calculated stat, xFIP, that purports to give a more accurate measure of a pitcher's true performance than ERA. Now, don't get me wrong here, I am not dismissing xFIP as a stat. It is a very useful tool for evaluating most pitchers. The problem with xFIP is that there are a few pitchers, Cain, Zambrano and Matt Garza to name just 3, whose ERA consistently outperforms their xFIP. It is important to note that all 3 of these pitchers rely heavily on a high velocity, 4 -seam fastball that they throw up in the strike zone. Not surprisingly, all 3 get a lot more flyball outs than groundouts. xFIP relies heavily on the assumption that what happens to batted balls in play is largely due to luck. To a certain extent, that is true. However, non line drive flyballs in play are much more likely to be caught for outs than are groundballs, which often find their way between infielders for base hits. What about HR's? Don't all HR's have to start out as flyballs, and doesn't the % of flyballs that become HR's eventually regress to an average based almost exclusively on luck? Well now, that is not always true. In fact, most HR's are not lazy flyballs that carry over the fence at random. Most HR's are hit off mistake pitches such as hanging sliders and curveballs that are crushed. They are no-doubters! Pitchers with good fastballs that they throw up in the zone are actually much less likely to make "mistake" pitches with them than they are with their secondary stuff. Batters are able to make contact with them, but are not able to "get on top" of them and drive them. The result is a lot of weak flyballs, popups to the IF and high, shallow flyballs to the OF. They are easy outs, do not allow baserunners to advance and have no chance of carrying over the fence. I don't know if PitchFx can differentiate between a fastball and a hanging breaking pitch, but if it can, I bet it would confirm my observations from watching Matt Cain pitch a whole lot of games. Maybe OGC can help me out with this one.
Grant, over on mccoveychronicles.com wrote a piece today with basically the same complaint about Cainer's rankings by the xFIP fascists, but from a different angle. In the comments section of that post, someone made a very interesting point that on PitchFx, Matt Cain throws about 75% fastballs, a very high %, and gets a higher percentage of outs with that pitch than all but about 2 or 3 pitches in all of baseball! Bottom line, Cain has a darn good fastball and knows how to use it. He is not going to suddenly give up a bunch of HR's off the fastball!
Matt Cain is just entering the prime years of his career. He's never had any serious injury issues. His command of his fastball and other pitches is steadily improving. His peripheral stats have either improved or remained stable for several years now. He will have a much improved offense behind him in 2011. Even with a slight regression in some of his peripheral stats, he should be able to put up more wins, which are a category in most fantasy leagues, in 2011. He should be ranked in the #20-25 range in fantasy drafts.
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Sorry, DrB, but I don't know how to use Pitch/FX yet (though I wish I had the time).
ReplyDeleteHowever, if you look here - http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=2&season=2010&month=0&season1=2010 - you will find that few pitchers are able to get their Infield Fly% above 10% last season, among qualifying pitchers. Of course, per your detailed comments, those are pretty easy to catch for outs.
If you look at Cainer's stats - http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4732&position=P - you will see that he get more than 10% EVERY season of his career. Obviously, these flyballs don't go out for homers and thus should be not be accounted for in the HR/FB calculation (which should be a very easy thing to do, which nobody at Fangraphs has even figured out yet!). That raises his HR/FB to roughly 8% from 7%.
Extending that thought, if he gets a lot of infield flies, you have to believe that he gave up a lot of lazy fly balls too.
However, I must note that one of the key things he is missing, from a fantasy viewpoint, is the big K/9 which brings a lot of K's, and he used to have much higher BB/9, resulting in higher WHIP. And of course, his "ability" to get losses, which drove many a Giants fan to want to trade him over the years.
Given those considerations, I can see how a fantasy service might rate both Sanchez and Bumgarner above Cain, because there is the potential to get a lot of K's, plus the other stats, ERA, WHIP, W's.
But in building a real baseball team, I wouldn't.
I just can't believe someone could react badly to something you wrote, for you, sir, are a gentleman. Inexplicable that Fangraphs would allow that, then again, Dave Cameron seems to be running things there now, not the founder, and I find that he can attack commenters harshly sometimes. Not that many didn't deserve it, but if the top dog does it, the others might feel free to act this way, and they might not make as good a judgement about which to attack and which were just comments.
Also, from a fantasy viewpoint, I would want Cain for the fact that he took things up a notch in 2010 by posting more quality starts than before, up to what I call an elite level (using PQS methodology). Pitchers like that are more reliable in terms of delivering a good ERA (unlike, say, a Sanchez) and WHIP, and thus ultimately wins.
cain is a solid 2 on most staffs in the majors....a 1 on many
ReplyDeleteand i watched him turn it up an entire notch during the post season and become the best pitcher on the staff
so i really dont know where this guy is coming from
maybe, if these rankings came out at the end of 09, i could agree with him...but not now
and alot of baseball people are wondering how stretching madbum out last season will effect him this season, so i cant see ranking him above cain
and i guess the guy didnt notice how latos faded hard down the stretch
OGC,
ReplyDeleteI have had Cain on my fantasy team for 3 years now. While he hasn't gotten a ton of W's, he has gotten enough to be helpful and he racks up innings making he ERA more of an asset. Although his K/9 is pedestrian, he makes up for that again by racking up the innings. He biggest asset is he has taken the ball every 5 games like clockwork and almost always gives you a QS, so he very seldom blows up your ERA for the week in a H2H format. So, maybe his value is somewhat format dependent. With the enhanced offense behind him, he should be racking up some W's in 2011 unless he is just plain jinxed in that department.
As for Gross' responses, I have to admit I was pretty hard on the guy and he did not attack me personally. I just thought he was a bit condescending and unwilling to even look at another side of the story.
Bacci,
Exactly. No matter how much you like Latos and Bumgarner, they are both coming off rookie years in which they pitched way more innings than they ever have before. Nobody in their right mind would take them ahead of Cain in a fantasy draft unless they are hopeless gamblers.
Just want to repost this from McCoveyChronicles:
ReplyDeleteSeason IP ERA FIP xFIP
2005 46.1 2.33 4.08 4.96
2006 190.2 4.15 3.96 4.54
2007 200 3.65 3.78 4.61
2008 217.2 3.76 3.91 4.52
2009 217.2 2.89 3.89 4.22
2010 223.1 3.14 3.65 4.19
Total 1095.2 3.45 3.84 4.43
Season LD% GB% FB% IFFB% HR/FB
2005 17.80% 29.50% 52.70% 11.80% 5.90%
2006 16.70% 35.60% 47.70% 16.30% 7.10%
2007 16.10% 39.40% 44.50% 11.40% 5.50%
2008 22.80% 33.20% 44.00% 10.10% 6.80%
2009 18.70% 38.90% 42.40% 10.60% 8.40%
2010 17.20% 36.20% 46.60% 16.40% 7.40%
Total 18.30% 36.30% 45.30% 12.90% 7.00%
What I see: an absurdly good IFFB%, coupled with a very, very good LD%, resulting in a low (sustainable) overall HR/FB-rate. Oh, and his BB% has been steadily declining too.
Wow, what a loser pitcher...
Thanks Dave,
ReplyDeleteOn a related note, there is an exciting and potentially explosive fanpost over on beyondtheboxscore.com featuring our own Jonathan Sanchez arguing that some pitchers do indeed have control over their LD% and can dial it up a notch in high leverage situations thus increasing their LOB%.
This article would tend to back up what I am trying to say about Matt Cain and bodes well for Jonathan Sanchez' future too.
From a fantasy perspective Matt Cain be lower down the list than if you were making a legitimate team, but to put him in a group with some of those very inconsistent names is ludicrous. I like having him on my fantasy teams for a few reasons, but mostly because he is a stable source of ERA, decent K's for a 3 pitcher, and also provides a great value if you play categories of CG because most guys you would draft in that area are not a source for CG's.
ReplyDeleteWhoever the idiot is who wrote that he hates Matt Cain must have some illegitimate reason, or else he wasn't able to find a TV Screen for the 2010 playoffs when Cain was untouchable in every way... Maybe the good out of this insanity is that I can suggest that reading to the guys in my league and they'll pass on Cain so I can take him a few rounds later than I would have anyways.
DrB -
ReplyDeleteYou ever thought of doing a fantasy league with people who regularly post on the blog? It would be interesting, as it seems a lot of these guys really know their stuff, especially in statistical analysis. Would be a fun idea to run an 8 or 10 team league.
Yeah, I finally read the post and you were, as you put it, pretty hard on him, but he deserves it for saying "I hate Matt Cain". The moment he put that down, he is clearly biased, which most do not want in a fantasy ranking, but at least he copped to it.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to add that Cain is nearing the seasons that Tangotiger said that a SP needs to compile enough IP to statistically prove that he can maintain a lower BABIP. That is the inherent problem with DIPS, that while that model works for the vast majority of pitchers in the majors, it clearly does not work for pitchers like Zito and Cain, yet these "experts" think that FIP is inviolate.
JH,
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to host a fantasy league, but I'm a bit afraid of the time commitment. Blogging this last season was one of the greatest experiences of my life, but also exhausting. I probably can't take on anything else until I retire, which is quite a few years away.
OGC,
I have no idea why Jeffery Gross "hates" Matt Cain, except possibly that Matty keeps on showing up his pet statistical theory. I don't know. Seems like he could have just said that Cain is somewhat of a statistical anomaly that might account for some variability in his rankings by different experts or something. The way he said it really made it come off sounding personal and that he really wanted to bury him even further. I don't know, the tone of it just really bothered me so I decided to call him out on it.
Sorry if I came off sarcastic, I appreciate the input you were providing. I've just been going back and forth between comments and law school at the moment. I understand what you are trying to communicate about Matt Cain, I just disagree with it. I will try and write out a more reasoned response shortly regarding Matt Cain. He is an interesting pitcher to write about and I think I have enough material to devote a piece to him if I have time.
ReplyDeleteI do know that one of the THTF Competition writers wrote an article about Matt Cain as his submission, which is getting posted on THT soon. Let's see what his thing says and if it is any different from what I would have to say, I will then attempt at some point to reason my thoughts less rudely. Sorry if you took offense to my response or writings on fangraphs. I'm just consistent :)
-Jeffrey
Jeffrey,
ReplyDeleteThank you for responding.
Before you write your response, you might want to check a recent fanpost on beyondtheboxscore.com re. Jonathan Sanchez and a pitcher's control of LD% and LOB%. I would also urge you to at least consider the possibility that xFIP may not accurately account for certain types of pitchers. Power/flyball pitchers who can successfully work up in the strike zone and who tend to get a lot of flyball outs seem to be one such type. I could be wrong, but I think there is a whole lot of stuff we still don't know that Pitchfx data will help us figure out once we have a chance to process that mass of data. I believe, although I can't prove it, that most HR's are hit off hung breaking pitches, and high fastballs that produce a lot of weak flyballs are actually fairly low risk pitches in terms of giving up HR's.
I'm sorry if my comments were offensive. I was just taken aback by your comment about "hating" Matt Cain. When I first read it, I thought it was in jest, but upon re-reading it, it seemed like you were expressing your true feelings. I took exception to what appeared to be a personal bias on your part. I hope I was wrong about that.
I would also suggest reading Tom Tippett's study of DIPS on Diamond Minds where he found that there were various classes of pitchers who were able to control BABIP. I can understand using FIP or xFIP to caution against certain pitchers early in their careers, which is why I was never strident about those who talked smack of Matt Cain, but he's basically at the point now where he has proven that he's a pitcher who IS capable of inducing a reduced rate of BABIP and therefore DIPS does not apply to him and FIP is an understatement of his true talents.
ReplyDeleteAnd hating a player just because he a square peg going into a round hole should not be a reason to hate, it should be an opportunity to investigate why that might be true.
To his credit, Nayer did the same with Kirk Rueter and found that Reuter's strategy for attacking hitters was pretty sound, within the boundaries of his limited talents.
Oh, that last comment was directed towards Jeffrey.
ReplyDelete@obsessivegiantscompulsive,
ReplyDeletePitchers control babip based on their batted ball distribution. Thats why I liked tERA to some extent. Problem is that BIP distro tends to fluctuate year to year. We can say what a pitcher's expected distributed WHIP and ERA are based on a previous distribution using league average outs and runs per BIP type rates, but it hardly helps predict the futue....
I do not in any way rely exclusively on xFIP in predicting pitchers and the like by any means, it is just a tool to give me red flags about higher risks. If you scroll through my THTF posts, you'll find one article where I looked at pitchers and the variability between their xFIP, FIP, tERA and ERAs to find which pitchers the stats most agree and disagree on. My ranking reflects risk in a lot of sense, not just injury risk, but risk of not repeating/improving over last year. I do not doubt that Cain's xFIP is not completely representative, but its possible that it is. Much more importantly, his control I feel was overstated last season in light of his peripherals....
Using my xWHIP calculator (which does not account for outfield assists or baserunning errors, e.g. unsuccessfully trying to turn a single into a double) to represent Matt Cain's previous two seasons of data, I get the following:
xWHIP 1.4.3 = 1.216
xWHIP 2.0 = 1.303
Quick xWHIP = 1.284
I'm still tweaking the formula, but when 2 of the 3 formulas are close, i tend to side with them.
His IFFB% is strong again, but still that control rate seems to be what limits him. Note his expected hits total (402) and expected innings total (412)
If you believe that Cain's 7% HR/FB% career rate is his true HR/FB%, then his xWHIPs look as follow:
ReplyDeletexWHIP 1.4.3 = 1.179
xWHIP 2.0 = 1.263
Quick xWHIP = 1.284
In light of our discussion, I decided to tweak my xWHIP calc to determine xWHIP, xFIP and expected tERA based on a HR/FB% you assume represents a pitcher's true talent.
ReplyDeleteShoot me your email and I'll give you a sneak peak of the updated tool you inspired/
Cool, thanks for the reference, I'll look for that article comparing the variability.
ReplyDeleteThank you also for sharing more of your thinking. Clearly there was a lot more thinking and rationale behind your answer than just "hate".
Jeff, just saw your other posts. One question I've had about the whole HR/FB theory is that it is acknowledged that there are infield flies which fall under the FB category and yet they are not subtracted from it when calculating HR/FB ratios, even though clearly the odds of hitting a homer with an infield fly is clearly 0%. That would put Cain closer to the 10% level (push him up to 8% I believe), which when further adjusted for the fact that AT&T suppresses homers to RF, puts it closer as well
ReplyDeleteHey, great discussion everybody! Looks like we may have broken new ground here! I have to admit Jeffrey and OGC lost me part way through all that. I'll just say that whatever happens to Cain in 2011 there are a few things I am very sure of:
ReplyDelete1. His command/control has steadily improved over the last 3 years, it's not a mirage.
2. He has always had a crazy ability to induce weak flyball contact. His IFFB% and his HR/FB are also not a mirage. Those weak flyballs are easy outs, do not allow baserunners to advance and have no chance of carrying out of the park.
3. #2 above helps him keep his HR rate down, LOB% up, and ultimately his ERA down.
Now, his fastball may suddenly straighten out and some of those pop flies will start flying out of the park, but I wouldn't bet on it because he's been doing it his whole career.
I used matt cain's last 2 years of numbers only ---
ReplyDeleteHere are Matt Cain’s expected numbers using both a 11.5% HR/OFFB% factor and his two-year 9.1% HR/OFFB factor, assuming you believe that his lower number represents his true talent:
11.5%:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ILi2YcJWxcM/TTSTDuvyMUI/AAAAAAAAAik/0ToiPa3L6xM/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-01-17+at+1.06.40+PM.png
9.1%:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ILi2YcJWxcM/TTSTDHSicFI/AAAAAAAAAic/rX1-3XnKN0Y/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-01-17+at+1.01.36+PM.png
Note that even with a 9.1% HR/FB factor, tERA, which measures actual ball in play events still expects a poor outcome for Matt Cain: 4.46. In fact, it’s only xFIP of the two formulas that tends to like Matt Cain if his true HR/FB% is 9%.
Now, if Cain’s HR/FB% were actually 7%, then the expected tERA would be 4.16.
Again, nothing of this is dispositive and its possible I put the wrong values in the calculator. Just more insight into my thought process
Dr. B Giants Fan,
ReplyDeleteWhat is your email? I will send you this tool so you can play around with it yourself. You can change the runs value by season if you have BIS/Game Day (otherwise keep it the same)
I take my statements back. The tERA component may be off for some reason and xIP is still being uncooperative
ReplyDeleteIgnore that last comment, the runs values were off.
ReplyDeleteThe correct values are
11.5% HR/FB:
4.57 tERA, 4.14 xFIP
9.1% HR/FB:
4.30 tERA, 3.86 xFIP
7.0% HR/FB:
4.00 tERA, 3.55 xFIP
Also, can you link to the BTB link you referenced?
ReplyDeleteJeff, I was looking at stats on Baseball Prospectus and if you look at only flyballs and cull out the popups, like they do, Cain's HR/FB ratio is roughly the 10% expected value.
ReplyDeleteDoes all the adjusted numbers you provided also assume his BABIP is as good as his career numbers and not the .300 regression mean? Like DrB, I am at the point of where I'm not as up on the techniques. I get that tERA varies based on batted ball distribution, but if the projected numbers are still so bad for Cain despite so many seasons now that he's been comfortably under 4.00 ERA, you have to wonder whether he is one of those rare players that they theory does not work for.
From a fan qualitative perspective, and not just a numbers perspective, it has been clear that Cain's pitches has that "stuff" that announcers rave about from certain pitchers, which results in low hit totals. I had thought that Cain would be the next Giants no-hitter until, obviously, Sanchez did it. But obviously, can't use this as a "fact". The statheads have took aim at Cain every year but he has just been not only doing well, but improving over time.
I think DrB was referring to this fanpost, though there is not much discussion there: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/1/14/1936033/pitcher-influence-on-line-drives-revisted-also-clutchness
ReplyDeleteYeah, I have to admit I'm kinda lost on all the calculations here. I think I understand the basic principles, but it's been a long time since I was a math minor in college and did any actual math calculations.
ReplyDeleteI know this is very un-sabermetric, but I have watched the majority of Matt Cain's games either in person or on TV since he broke in. I even saw him pitch once in the minors when he was with the San Jose Giants. The one almost uncanny thing that I think anybody who has watched a lot of his games comes away with is the phenomenal number of foul offs, IF pop ups and shallow OF flyballs that he has always gotten. It's his unique signature style. The fouloffs used to drive a lot of us Giants fans crazy because they ran up his pitch counts big time. In the last 2 years, he seems to have figured out how to use his secondary stuff to get hitters out quicker without quite so many 2 strike fouloffs.
From my understanding of the theory behind DIPS and xFIP, the weak flyball stuff just doesn't fit into the equations. They just don't account for a pitcher who CONSISTENTLY induces a large percentage of weak flyballs.
So, go ahead and keep discounting Matt Cain. One of these years he'll probably have a nagging injury or get a minor mechanical flaw and you'll finally be proven right. Based on my personal observations which I believe correlate perfectly with the data, I believe Matt Cain's performances are for real.
Yes, the title of the BTB Fanpost is "Pitcher influence on line drives, revisited, also clutchness."
ReplyDeleteHope that helps.
My tERA calculations normalize his BIP rates to reflect a 19% line drive rate. His expected BABIP is around .300 by my calculations, but it could be as low as .280.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm not the creator of the numbers. I'm just showing you what I have been presented with. I realize some pitchers consistently "overpeform" like Zambrano. I just try to avoid those persons because I view them as riskier commodities. It's like a continuously successful stock with a poor P/E ratio.
Jeffrey,
ReplyDeleteBut yes, you ARE creating the numbers because you are insisting that Cain's numbers have to someday regress to some average that you have decided is where they should regress to. If you avoid Zambrano, that's fine, but in the process you've avoided a pitcher who's won a lot of games, and struck out a lot of batters all while maintaining an ERA under 4 all while pitching in the same park that all the sabermetricians insist is going to be the end of Matt Garza.
I see the same numbers you see and come to a completely different conclusion because in watching Matt Cain pitch, I see exactly HOW he has produced numbers that you find so baffling. When I turn on a Matt Cain game on TV, I have a lot of confidence that he's going to give the Giants a well pitched game that they have a chance to win, because I have witnessed the man's consistency. I don't flinch when I see flyballs coming off the batters' bats because I have seen so many turn into weak flyballs that are easily caught. When he puts runners on base, I am confident that he will either get a key K or a shallow pop up that will not allow the runners to advance. Most of all, when I chose him as a keeper in my fantasy league, I did it with confidence that he will give me another solid performance and help my fantasy team, with the standard barring injury disclaimer.
So it sounds like you and I are not going to agree on this. I give you some credit for trying to see another side of the issue and not making it personal between us, but I do think you have a personal dislike of Matt Cain for some reason. Maybe you are a Mets fan or maybe you just don't like seeing him show up your evaluation system, or maybe I'm misjudging you. I'm just going by the words you wrote in the Hardball Times article which certainly sounded like you had a personal grudge against Matt Cain. I have yet to see any indication of you backing away from saying you hate Matt Cain.
Cubs fan
ReplyDelete